Unknown Speaker 0:07 Hello, welcome to it's okay to feel with Jennifer and known a nominee OC podcast where we explore mental health topics that help you feel your feelings and feel a little less alone. We're so happy you're here. Now, on to the show. Unknown Speaker 0:25 Welcome to it's okay to feel a mammy OC podcast. My name is known wells. I am one of two co hosts on this show. My other co host is a friend of mine. She is freckly she's based in Florida. She's bright and bubbly. And I adore her. Her name is Jennifer Lynn. Hello, Jennifer. Hi. And suddenly Jennifer is turned into er Unknown Speaker 0:55 mixture of you are in sadness from inside out. Yes. Thank you my brain. Unknown Speaker 1:01 I love that movie inside. That's so good. I even wrote a piece on my blog when that movie came out because I was so touched by it. Unknown Speaker 1:10 I was I'm so grateful a movie like that even existed. Can you imagine it took this long? And I think it's the only one that exists. Unknown Speaker 1:17 Right? I want to change that I you know, Unknown Speaker 1:21 writing a movie tomorrow. Unknown Speaker 1:24 Let's write a movie. Yes, exactly. Unknown Speaker 1:27 Amy Poehler, I you will be in it. Unknown Speaker 1:30 There you go. I love Amy Poehler. So today we're talking about thin privilege. We're talking about body image. We're talking about body positivity, all of these very important items. We interview Lindley ashline today. It's great. She's amazing. She has just so much knowledge and she does wonderful work. Her business is called the body Liber body liberation photography. It's wonderful. And you're gonna love, love, love the conversation. But before we get to that, we're just going to talk about body image, and how it relates to us and what we feel about it. So tell Unknown Speaker 2:11 me that your body noon. Unknown Speaker 2:15 Okay, well, you know, I got to I got two legs. Oh, no, the Unknown Speaker 2:21 detective is back. Unknown Speaker 2:26 Let's see. Yeah, body image. I mean, it's, it's, it's weird. bodies are are wonderful and beautiful and unique. And that's definitely a thing we want to continue to reiterate on this episode is that all bodies are different. And all bodies are beautiful. When it comes to body image, and like body positivity as it pertains to me specifically, you know, I identify as a man, I also have thin privilege, I'm in a normal body, I'm also able bodied. And so there's definitely some weight there that I mean, philosophical and emotional weight. I mean, that, you know, I have to contend with and it's important to think about, you know, I'm also someone who's had an eating disorder in the past, and we're going to talk about that at a later episode, you know, eating disorder, specifically, but I guess I feel, you know, frustrated and sad that, you know, things exist in the world that tell us that we need to be a certain way and have a certain shape and this shape is this shape is good, and this shape is bad. And, and it just makes me sad, you know? Unknown Speaker 3:45 Yeah, a lot of the things she talked about, like because I am a small human being, and by small I mean, kid size Unknown Speaker 3:53 human beings and a purse. Unknown Speaker 3:55 I fit it into a purse everybody know, but I wear like the kids sizes in stores generally. But um, what she talked about really like, it made me sad like it was because it made me sad for multiple reasons. It made me sad that because I never even thought about some of the things she discussed, like, fitting in the chair at the doctor's office like that never occurred to me like then it made me feel guilty because why haven't I thought about these things. And guilt is my auto mode, generally for many things, including my body. Unknown Speaker 4:27 So purlin powered by guilt pattern Unknown Speaker 4:30 by guilt and unworthiness. Unknown Speaker 4:33 I get it. I feel the same and it's, you know, it's a it's another reminder that intersectionality is important, right? We all have a spectrum of gender identity and body and mental health and, you know, racial background and all of it like all of it is important to be a part of like who we are and make up who we are. You know And when we're addressing topics, topics like this, it's important to think about it because it helps with empathy. Right? It helps with, like, learning and finding different perspectives from each other. And that's an important part of healing and connecting with one another. Yeah, I, you know, when I think about, like, the messages that people see and hear and feel, you know, online everywhere. I think you mentioned it, you know, recently, you know, Jennifer, like, just the the onslaught of sort of shyness, that is Instagram, right. And, you know, so many, like, especially in like the wellness industry, there's just like, thin white people everywhere, right? And, you know, you know, it's, it's, it's important not to, like, disparage people for being what they are, but it's also it's, it's, it's a symptom of a society that is based in thin white, blue haired, Unknown Speaker 6:03 Blue Haired, Unknown Speaker 6:05 Blue Haired, you know, tattooed notice getting blue eyes and blonde, like, that stems from, like, racism and like where our country started. And that has been the ideal, and we need to fight against that we need to challenge that. How do we how do we challenge that? What are some ways that we can sort of fight against that, that onslaught of like, you need to look a certain way, be a certain way your body needs to be this thing? Unknown Speaker 6:36 I think we can cry in the corner. Unknown Speaker 6:38 Sure. That's, that's a method. Unknown Speaker 6:40 Yeah, that might be like the best. Now, if you don't want to cry in the corner. I think it's important. And I definitely need to take more action doing this where? Well, first off, if there's anyone who makes you feel inferior, whether it's based on any particular reason, like, unfollow, unfollow anybody, I have, I follow people, because I have a lot of insecurity, which made me that's not the healthiest way of unfollowing. But, but if people aren't. Well, let's move on to the next thing. Try and be more I said this so much for Hello, currently, like last time, we were recording this the first time. But, um, it's important, especially right now, with so many. On just things coming, I don't want to say coming too late. I feel like I'm learning so much. There's so much I need to learn about and that means I have to follow different people, people who, like Lindley, who could teach me not teach me I hate that word, too. But I am not saying this well known. Unknown Speaker 7:45 No, I, hey, let me try to extrapolate what you're saying. Because what you're hitting as you use the Unknown Speaker 7:50 big word, Unknown Speaker 7:52 extrapolate? Unknown Speaker 7:54 No, I think what you're saying is important. And what I hear you saying is that there, like it is important, like a piece of body image is and and trying to relate and have empathy for people, maybe in larger bodies that are dealing with struggles and obstacles that are just set up for our society, that I am not experiencing that you're not experiencing Jennifer perhaps, right. It's important to surround yourself with people who are going to allow you to see things from a different perspective, right? That's that is empathy. Like that is the practice and effort of empathy. It takes work, right. And that is that is like an important sort of general rule for mental health, right to think about, and to allow ourselves like moments of discomfort, you know, because in that discomfort, there's clarity, there's learning, there's, you know, seeing things from a different perspective, there's all of these things, and the same is true of body image. And so, you know, one of the things you said and we talked about it a little bit in our chat with Lindley is like, curate, you know, your Instagram feed, like, unfollow people who make you feel less than right? Because the reality is your body is beautiful. We all there's different shapes, and there's no bad or good as much as capitalism wants to say that. There is only one way to look and it's good, and that's what makes you money and whatever and no, like it's our job to fight against that. Unknown Speaker 9:36 No, agreed. I mean, like the wellness part of society. It's not like a buzzy word. Like, because and she does mention, I think it's like a $78 billion industry or something. And like, even like, okay, so I did mention earlier to you, but like I was scrolling through Instagram, and a shiny person came on the screen. And I was very drawn to this girl because she has shiny straight, which I do not have straight hair. Like that's what you're supposed to have, right? And like society like beautiful, silky straight hair. Yeah, blue, beautiful blue eyes. And what struck me is that she did write a very sincere post about self care and why she needed to, like, recharge herself because of XYZ or whatever. But then at the end, it was an ad for like all these like, makeup brands. And I was like, wow, like, um, and not to discredit like her need for self care, or how shiny and blonde her hair is. But like, That alone made me so upset, because I'm just like, well, now it's consumerism, like, right, mixed with self care. But granted, all of our, like, I did scroll through the comments in the comments were about like, they were healthy comments, or at least there's that. Yeah, maybe no one else noticed that it said add. It just made me sad. Like, Unknown Speaker 10:57 yeah, you know, there is a lot of, and I think we're in a later episode, we're gonna get into more of like, the sort of influencer culture and stuff like that, you have Unknown Speaker 11:07 a great guest for that, too. I'm so excited. Unknown Speaker 11:09 Yeah, and there's a lot of unhealthiness in that, right, you know, and buying into capitalism and buying into these, you know, thin ideals, you know, around body image and stuff. And to look out for that, and, you know, I guess I just want to say, like, you know, me as someone who is in a thin body, who is in the ABLE body, who is in a white male body, you know, it's my job, you know, and I, this is like, my own personal work that I'm just talking about here, but it's my my job to allow that to be fodder for information when I, you know, apply empathy. And when I think about these things, because, you know, in doing so allows me to remember that I do have privilege, I do have immense privileges, right. That doesn't make anything bad or doesn't take away from the fact that like, yeah, things haven't always been easy. You know, two truths can exist at once, right? That's an important lesson, right? But when it comes to body image and stuff, it just allows me a broader, more empathetic, caring, curious lens. And I think that's important for all of us when it comes to these topics. Unknown Speaker 12:34 Plus, I kind of think we're brainwashed as a society, and it's good to educate ourselves, especially on things that we know know that much about. And I feel like, Well, no, I shouldn't even say that. But I just feel like it's very good. There's so many ways we could educate ourselves right now. Especially in like, empathy and understanding other people like size, color, gender, anything at all. Um, and there's ways to do it. There's incredible people like Lindley, who are very openly even though she's being trolled and attacked sometimes just based on what she looks like or who she is or who she's talking about, like, but there's people like who were helping us, like helping us understand helping us, like learn to love other people, or ourselves or and ourselves more. Unknown Speaker 13:22 Yep, absolutely. It's our job to burn down the structures of oppression. That's really what it's about. It's it's all of our jobs. Well, let's, let's get into the interview with Lindley it's, it's an amazing interview listeners, we think you're gonna love it. We know we loved it. So I just wanted to say that I am a silly boy, not a therapist, and it's okay this feel is for informational, educational and or entertainment purposes only, and is not a substitute for medical or psychiatric advice, diagnosis or treatment. Again, we're not therapists. There is some amazing resources and a warm line on the Nami oc.org website you can check out we are also funded that we have a funding statement we should say and I want I want Jennifer to say this because it's her favorite. She loves saying this. Unknown Speaker 14:23 I really thought you were gonna say it today. Unknown Speaker 14:24 I'm sorry. I did sort of sound like I wasn't going to. Unknown Speaker 14:29 It's okay to feel is funded by the orange county health care agency, OC HCA behavioral health services Coronavirus, aid relief and economic security cares act basically that just means all these people support our mission to support the wow chatting about mental wellness more and we are grateful to be a part of it. Unknown Speaker 14:50 so grateful this this you know, short run limited run podcast series. You know, this project is very near and dear to our hearts and we're so so thankful to be part of Jennifer, where can listeners connect with you specifically? Unknown Speaker 15:05 They can find me. My website is Jennifer Lynn GNIPHRLY en comm or on Instagram, same thing, Jennifer Lynn, or on I'm trying to resurrect my podcast in scram. It's at rainy day diaries pod. It is on hiatus, but there's 50 wonders episodes about uplifting and some hard topics. Unknown Speaker 15:29 How about you? Unknown Speaker 15:30 Yeah. My podcast is called human empathy and you can find it and listen to it everywhere. I release a new episode every Monday. It's a deep dive conversation long form. And there's, I don't know, 150 episodes or so at this sure beat me. Yeah, I'm winning. And Unknown Speaker 15:53 we were on a break. Unknown Speaker 15:54 There's no competition. Unknown Speaker 15:57 But, and my little small business project special passion project small Unknown Speaker 16:02 for now. Unknown Speaker 16:05 Thank you. Thank you, the feeling human collective. You can learn more about that at Fili human.co and I'm on Instagram at ILA human and at you me empathy. Thank you listeners for listening and I hope you enjoy our conversation with Lindley ashline on body image, body positivity, thin privilege, etc. It's wonderful. And hey, remember that your feelings are valid, your feelings are guideposts on your journey. And it's always okay to fee Unknown Speaker 16:57 Welcome to it's okay to feel it's a podcast by Naomi OC and me known wells and my co host, Jennifer Lynn. Hello, Jennifer. Unknown Speaker 17:07 Hello, that's me. Unknown Speaker 17:09 Today on the show, we are chatting with someone I met about a year ago at Camp he'll someone I admire someone who's doing wonderful work in the world. Her name's Lindley ashline. Hello, Lindley. Unknown Speaker 17:25 Hello, Unknown Speaker 17:27 how are you? Unknown Speaker 17:27 I'm good. Unknown Speaker 17:29 Good. Good to hear him. We're so happy to have you here. We're so happy to hear more about the work you're doing in the world. Before we get to that, though, let's let's. Let's allow the listeners to learn a little bit about yourself. Can you introduce yourself and tell the listeners a little bit about what you do? Unknown Speaker 17:48 Yeah, so I'm wenli ashline. And I'm a body positive and fat positive photographer. We'll talk a little bit about what that means later in the show. But I'm also an author and activist. I live outside Seattle, Washington with my husband and my feline Overlord, who you can't see this because you're only getting audio but she's sleeping adoringly right behind me. So just imagine an adorable cat in the background of this show the whole episode, and you'll have it about right. Unknown Speaker 18:15 It feels like feline overlord is a bit of redundancy. Unknown Speaker 18:22 That's true. Unknown Speaker 18:24 I mean, just call them cats or felides. The overlord is implied. Well, we're so happy to have you here like I you know, body positivity, Health at Every Size, thin privilege, like these are essential topics when it comes to mental health and especially for you know, our audiences, you know, a bit younger than than we are. I know certainly, there's so much weird societal pressure and and just very vile and unhealthy perspectives on our bodies that exists in the world. Right. You know, tell us a lot. Let's talk about I want to get into this topic by talking about body shame and where that comes from. And maybe Lindley, talk a little bit about your experience with body shame. Yeah, so Unknown Speaker 19:21 so my personal experience is actually a little unusual. As far as our, in the US in the last half century, I'm I'm 40 years old. And my story is a little bit unusual. I'm different from most of the people that I know as far as my relationship with my body because I grew up without a TV. I mean, we had a TV in our house. I mean, functionally, we had a TV, but I grew up kind of out in a rural area without a lot of TV options and without cable and so so basically, I have seen every episode of the nature documentary wild America with Marty style. And let me tell you, Marty self, I had a beard and I had a crush. But like, I wasn't watching, watching, like mainstream TV and I wasn't exposed, like I didn't really have access to pop culture, to magazines. And, of course, this was very pre social media. So I grew up without a TV, which means that I wasn't getting a lot of the messages about bodies that most people grow up with. And so I always try to add that for context, when I talk about body image and body shame, because everybody's story is a little bit different. And we'll talk about talk later about how stories are held in our bodies and expressed in our bodies. But, but mine has been my body image journey has been relatively very relatively, but relatively easy. Because I didn't have as much shame to unpack and get rid of. And so occasionally, I will have someone come to me and say, how did you do it? You know, this, this seems like magic. Like, you know, how have you gotten so far? And part of it is I just had this advantage. Yeah. I started on second base. So and you know, and not having pop culture exposure has been has been a challenge in other ways. Like I whatever that movie is, I probably haven't seen it. Um, I sort of miss miss the 80s, which is a shame. But, but I've Unknown Speaker 21:23 seen Willow. I have not Oh, kill me. Oh, my goodness. Unknown Speaker 21:28 I know. Right. It wrecked. Unknown Speaker 21:30 You ready Perry and Taylor Swift arc? Unknown Speaker 21:32 I do. I do. I mean, I live on the internet now. Like, I guess. I have some contacts. But But yeah, I just sort of so. So it's, it's really interesting when we look at body shame, because body shame has taught that that was, you know, coming back to the point there is that this is taught, this is not something that we're born with. And I want to talk really quickly to you about the difference between like, what is shame? Like, what is that? And what does it mean, you know, to feel bad about our bodies, and there are different ways that we can feel bad about our bodies, shame is only one of them. So I want to talk really quickly about the difference between guilt and shame. Because we feel guilt when we take an action, and then we feel bad about that action. That's guilt, that's, um, I didn't pet my cat sufficiently today, and she got mad about it. And she walked out of the room, it might feel a little bit guilty, because, you know, now the cats upset because I didn't pet her as long as she wanted or, you know, whatever, just pick an example. Um, but when I feel shame, so I feel guilt because I did something that I think is a bad thing to do. When I feel shame, is because I am bad, I feel like I am bad, as opposed to doing something bad. So, so these two, they're important to understand, because understanding where these things are coming from, and the difference between the two helps us sort of begin to reject those are at least to understand them. So, so shame is when we transgress some kind of socially accepted boundary. Some cultures are have more firm boundaries, culturally, that induce shame when people transgress them than others. In the US, we have a lot of boundaries and these shame based boundaries around bodies. So when I understand that there's a cultural boundary, that the that there's a standard here, and the standard is a thin body. And I don't have that, that's not necessarily an action I took, you know, I didn't I didn't wake up one morning and say, you know, I'm gonna be fat today. And then I feel guilty about making that decision or that action. I feel like I'm a bad person, because I, I am bad because I have this bad body. And of course, your body is not bad, we're going to talk about that. But that's, that's the shame. And and, you know, it's, it's, I am bad, I exist badly. My very existence is terrible. That's what shame is. And it comes from two places. You know, you weren't born with body shame. You didn't, you didn't come out of your mother's womb with a you know, my little my tiny little chubby baby legs are terrible, like nobody's born with that it's taught. And that doesn't mean that now you don't also feel it internally. Because the shame can come from either imposed on you by someone on the outside. And that can be a person. It can be it can be a parent who put you on a diet as a kid, it can be a TV show where everybody's thin and glamorous and you're not it can be or everyone is able bodied and you're not or everyone is healthy and you're not and you have a chronic illness. You know, there are there are many places this can come from, because I talk about body size a lot. That tends to be the framework that I use, but this this is it's applicable to every way in which you feel like you don't measure up Or your body doesn't measure up. So the other place that shame can come from is internal. You know, I feel bad, because I'm a bad person. But that is learned, you know, and it's cumulative. Because the more the outside world tells you that you should be ashamed, the more likely you are to start repeating that internally. And that's why we feel bad about our bodies internally. Even when no one is telling us, you know, even when no one is shaking a finger at us and going, you know, your body is bad and wrong. We feel that anyway, because it's been told us to so many times in so many different ways that we've absorbed that and we start repeating it too, because that's all we know. Unknown Speaker 25:39 Yeah. Yeah. It's, I think it's very well said, and thank you. For all that clarification. It's, it's important to point out that I think the the things that make us feel that shame, where we're telling ourselves that we are bad people, right? It's not always like, hey, like people explicitly calling that out. Right? It is the system. Right? It is like, right. It is our it's the media that you mentioned, it is it is, you know, the system itself. It's, it's what is beautiful, it's it's magazines, it's it's all of it, it's it's, it's all of it, it's like this collective systemic thing, telling people either implicitly or explicitly, you know, that this is not okay. This is bad, Unknown Speaker 26:30 right? Yeah. So that starts stemming in the 50s, like I'm trying to figure out or like, was hundreds of years old, because, at one point, bigger bodies weren't considered more beautiful, because it meant like, they were wealthy, they were they were sustained. They were Unknown Speaker 26:48 usually like the royalty in like, a village or something. And I don't understand, like, why, why is thinness all of a sudden perceived as, like, what you want to strive for? So actually just learned all about this pretty recently? Because, yeah, like you, I sort of had this vague impression that, you know, we're a bigger body, it's considered, you know, beautiful at one point, because wealth and you know, food abundance and, and then how did that change? So there's a whole book that was written exactly about this topic. It's by an author called Sabrina strings. And the book is called fearing the black body? Because it turns out that the answer is racism, which you wouldn't necessarily if you if you live in a white body, and you have not studied this, you wouldn't necessarily connect that. But it turns out, you know, the whole book can basically be summed up as colonialism and racism, set those standards. So let me see if I can sum up really quickly, because it's a really, really big topic. But essentially, when, when Europeans started colonizing the rest of the world, in begin capturing people with brown skin and introducing slavery, um, it became really important to determine who deserves to be enslaved? How can we justify this, who, because the concept of race just wasn't it wasn't like in 16 102 Um, if you were a white European, you would not have said I'm a white European, and that African person is black. Because we the the concept of race was not so the concept of race was developed in part two, to justify slavery and to justify racism to put one race on top of another with of course, white folks being at the very top Coen just coincidentally, and so, so the book goes into a lot of detail about exactly how this happened. But what happened was, was it did to a certain extent, when we're talking about this, we're not talking about people who were who were actually fat, we're talking on the larger size of medium, you know, being seen as attractive. And now prehistorically you know, we do have goddess figures that we have recovered like the Venus of Willendorf and we don't know exactly why those goddess figures were portrayed as being very fat. And that is way outside my lane. I don't know. Um, but but the modern the modern desire for thinness is because thinness was very deliberately over time, tied to whiteness, as a signal, a symbol of refinement, and restraint and capability. Because these people over here who are who were of a different race, we have decided because it's not nearly as clear cut as you would think. We have decided that they are unrestrained they're gluttonous. They're unintelligence they are, they cannot be trusted to manage themselves. Also, oh, look, we have to manage their lives for them and make them do things for us and and take all their natural resources funny how that works out. So, so literally the answer is racism. And it's really important to understand that because later when we talk about privilege that will become very important as well. Unknown Speaker 30:24 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, it's another tool of oppression, right? Yeah. Very clearly. Yeah. Gosh, it's a it's upsetting. It's upsetting. It's upsetting to think about, you know, the the world in which we exist, but it makes me so happy and grateful that, that you Lindley are doing the work that you're doing and because, you know, and maybe this, I mean, I'm not going to presume what his intention or not, what I see the work you're doing in specifically your photography, right? photography has existed culturally as another tool of oppression, right? Because we're gonna photo thin bodies, right? We're gonna photo thin white bodies, right, like, so you saying like, no, this tool can be a tool have to put it your way? liberation? Right. Yeah, you know, the opposite of oppression, which is so, so wonderful. Unknown Speaker 31:28 Yeah, and it's an it's a, because it is a tool that has been used primarily, photography is both what I would call prescriptive and descriptive. It is descriptive in that it captures the bodies that exist on the planet. But it is also prescriptive. Because how are how are these bodies being which bodies are being portrayed? How are they being portrayed? And then how are they being altered? Beyond beyond just the photographic process? How are they being photoshopped? How are they being composited? You know, we all know, we all know that, like Photoshop fails, where, where there's a magazine cover that where the model has three arms, because someone forgot to someone added an arm and forgot to remove one. But that and so that is that is just sort of the extreme ridiculous end of of it. But the keep in mind that everything that you see on the internet, in the media on TV, not all of those are based on real bodies. those are those are mostly not real bodies that exist. So yeah, photography is is very much a tool that, that has been used to say these are acceptable bodies, and we're just not going to show the other ones. And a lot of the work that I do is a rebellion against that. Unknown Speaker 32:42 So you were talking before about shame and how it's it's this deeply held belief. That's why that's why it is such a powerful For shame, because like, it does come from these. It comes from childhood traumas and experiences, and we hold it in our bodies, right? How do we how do we like as humans? How do you work through shame? How to? Or can you give some guidance, some tips, some things that, like you've talked about with with others just about trying to overcome that shame, because it is like, just this like, thing that's like, in my body, right? And like, I want to, I want to release this, I want to like, not allow these external forces to control this for me, you know, like, how do we get to that place? Unknown Speaker 33:36 Well, there are lots of different things you can do. And I'll just run through a few really quickly. But what has been most useful for me personally, honestly, is anger. Particularly as I'm Southern, I grew up in the south, and proper Southern ladies Don't get angry. We just get really passive aggressive. That is not um, you know, again, I'm Southern, I can use some passive aggressiveness, sweetie, Unknown Speaker 34:03 you know, bless your heart. But, you know, I didn't, I didn't allow myself to actually get angry as an emotion until I was probably in my 30s. It took a really long time. And what made me get really angry and start, start burning about this was the realization that people are profiting directly off of me feeling crappy about myself, every time I walk around the house, and I feel bad because I'm in public in a fat body. And I want to I want to clarify really quickly that when I use the word fat, it's not a judgment. I'm using that as a neutral descriptor of my own body, and of bodies that people in bodies who have said that they're that they also identify that way. It's the word that's been reclaimed. You do not have to use it for yourself. But I am using that neutrally. But every time I leave my house every time I leave my house and my fat body If I feel bad about that somebody is making money off of that, because I'm not much more likely to go sign up for a diet plan, that's not gonna work, or I'm gonna go buy exercise gear that is for exercise that I don't like doing. And thus, I'm not going to end up doing it, or you know, or I'm going to go buy a slimfast shake, or I'm gonna, or I'm going to go subscribe to a YouTube channel, you know about something diet related or something about changing your body. And none of that is good for me. And all of it is good for somebody else. And that's crappy and unfair. So for me, just burning off a lot of that shame through anger was really useful. But that also, it took me several years of really starting to examine my own body image and my body shame before I was ready for that anger. So if you're not ready, you know, and if that's not a useful tool for you, or you're not ready to look at it that way, I'm just change your media intake that has been for me. And for a lot of people that I know and that I've talked to you, changing your media intake is a big, big, big help. Because when you go out to the grocery store, like all the people around you at the grocery store are not models. They're not, you know, they're not, they're not all, you know, 21 years old and a size two and have flawless skin and all these other things that you think when you think about models, you know, there are old folks there, there are fat folks there, there are people with various disabilities, whether you can see them or not, you know, they're just normal people. But when but and so when we're in the real world, we see those things, at least when we're not, you know, isolating because of COVID. But, but we don't see those things in the media, we don't see them on Instagram, we don't see them on TV. And we only see this one standard. So the more you can break up that standard, the better it is for your body image and releasing that body shame because you see the other bodies exist, and they're okay too. And, you know, maybe that looks like, you know, maybe there's one magazine you read, that maybe you can ditch, like you don't have to change everything at once. You don't have to stop watching TV, you don't have to stop using Instagram, you know, that's not really a fair, a fair thing to ask people to do. But maybe maybe you can go follow some Instagram accounts with people who look like you. People who have your skin tone people who have your body shape, people who have, maybe if you live with some kind of visible disability, people who have that same disability, or use the same mobility device as you do, you know, like, go find some people who use wheelchairs go follow some people in fat bodies go follow some people who post a lot of fat rolls. Because looking at people who look like you and people who don't look like you, who also don't, you know, meet those impossible perfected beauty standards that are all photoshopped, anyway, that normalizes other bodies, and that is the biggest thing you can do. And beyond that, you know, see if, if you can maybe adjust your mindfulness, when you think about your body. If you start feeling bad about your body, which you will we all do, I do occasionally, you know, it's a lifelong process. Um, see if you can catch it in the moment and kind of switch it out. See if you can, like, take that negative thought, Oh, my, my belly is so big, Oh, my, I don't know, my boobs are uneven, whatever it is, you know, whatever it is, um, see if you can replace that with a kind word. A while back, I did a guest post for a blog and I came up with 40 kind words for larger bodies. And, you know, if you're listening, you may not live in a larger body. And you know, so these may or may not resonate with you. So you will want to find your own words either way. But here are the here are the things that we came up with just a few of them, you know, example, my body is a sample My body is worthy, luscious, like a mountain, like a boulder. Like, you know, something, something wonderful and solid and substantial in nature. comfortable, plush, protective, abundant, unique, substantial, flourishing, and full of stories. Because my body at 40 years old, I have wrinkles. I have I have acne still at 40 years old, because that's how my body rolls. Um, you know, I have I have, I'm not sure if what I can say on the podcast, but I have pancake shaped breast. So my, my, my boobs were flattened. Well, that's how they that again, that's how they roll my hair. You know, my hair's a little frizzy. And right now it's really long because I haven't had a haircut in over a year. Because I'm my you know, like I have a toad that kind of points inward. And I have stretch marks and all these things are just part of my story. They're part of what makes me me, they're not false. And you know, just because somebody wants to make money by calling it a flaw doesn't mean that it's not part of my really important story. This is where I get mad. And I start yelling into the microphone because, you know, because people want to erase my story. I wear glasses, I started wearing glasses in third grade. And I still remember stepping off the curb outside the doctor's office when I got my glasses, Unknown Speaker 40:19 and almost falling down because I wasn't used to seeing clearly. And like the difference it made in my balance temporarily. Um, you know, so I still remember stepping off the curb and, you know, kind of losing my balance momentarily. That's my story. You know, if you tell me all Well, you can't wear your glasses for that portrait. Because or, or, you know, glasses are gonna look kind of weird with your wedding dress. So why don't you? Why don't but I thought and, and, you know, that's my freakin story. You're racing? How dare you? I mean, you know, I'm kind of laughing as I say this, but it's very serious. How dare you? How dare you tell anybody on the planet that their story needs to be erased for the sake of five bucks, or for the sake of, you know, getting one step closer to this beauty standard that nobody can meet, because, again, it's all photoshopped. Anyway. So So I think the last thing that I would recommend right now, if if you're really struggling with your body image, is get help for it. And I know that sounds very trite. Like, see, a therapist is sort of a sort of a very trite answer, but it's also a really important answer. And it's a true answer. Because, again, my journey has been relatively very easy. Um, and, you know, it's, it's okay to struggle, we all struggle, but it's also Okay, it is okay to say, I deserve help for my struggle, and deserving help for your body image, you deserve help for that just as much as you do for depression, or anxiety, or OCD or any other any other issue you might have your body image is just as important and just as worthy of getting help. There are support groups, there are coaches, there are, you know, of course, actual therapy, psychotherapy, um, there are many, many, many ways that you can reach out for help, some of which are free, there are lots of free Facebook groups focused on body image, if professional help is unavailable to you. But if nothing else, being in community with other people who are exploring this as well can be really, really helpful. Unknown Speaker 42:23 So good. I mean, you speak so passionately and eloquently on these topics. Tell the listeners a little bit about what Health at Every Size means. It's, it's, it's it's a term that I guess I for myself, you know, and I'm probably a bit ignorant on the matter. I saw pop up maybe a couple years ago. I've seen some sort of controversy around it. Just Can you explain what what it is and what Maybe it means to you? Unknown Speaker 42:58 Yeah, absolutely. So So Health at Every Size, and its core is really simple, is the concept that you can work towards health, anyone can work towards health, in any body at any size, at any level of ability. And there are a couple of the the core of it, again, is very simple. But there's a couple of asterisks in that in that sentence, too. Because we have to recognize that health also looks different for everyone. Because health is not going to look like being 21 years old, in a flawless, impossibly perfect body for everyone. It's just, that's just not how it works. So Health at Every Size, acknowledges that and says that no matter what body you're in, you can work towards health, you know, whatever, whatever health looks like for you. Because if, you know, I have a diagnosed anxiety disorder, and I you know, I receive treatment for that, but I will probably always have that. And and so for me, health, you know, I had I also have a chronic, a chronic condition, a muscular chronic condition that affects my arms, I'm always going to have these chronic illnesses I'm not ever going to be what our mainstream idea of like magazine cover health my, you know, you might think of, yeah, oh, and that's okay. Because I can work towards I can use healthy behaviors in the body that already have in the state, you know, respecting the body in the life that already have and work towards what health looks like for me. And doesn't consider health to be a moral value either, which is really important. Because it's really easy to replace these impossible societal demands that give us body shame. With the demand, Oh, I should love my body all the time. No exceptions. I should you know, I Uh, well, it's okay if I, if it's okay, I'm not pretty as long as I'm healthy, like replacing one impossible standard with another impossible standard doesn't do us any good. So, so Health at Every Size is sort of sort of encompasses that would that that concept that health is also not a moral good. If you are in a position where you can be healthy for whatever value of health works for you, that's cool. You know, and you can and should pursue that as far as you want to in the life that you have. But there's no moral value to it, you know, like, because so many of us are never going to be what what some random other person might consider healthy either. Um, so it kind of frees us up from those standards, to just pursue health in whatever way works for us. But the other big corollary to that is that it's based on what we call evidence based medicine, which acknowledges that we don't have a way that is backed by science to make bodies smaller in the long term. And the short version of that the too long didn't read version is diets don't work. And this, this is why Health at Every Size is controversial, or haze, it's thought the acronym is haze. Because there's a $72 billion industry based on dieting just in the US now. And that was just in 2019. So a small group of people made $72 billion on the concept that we should all be dieting, to try to make our body smaller in the long term. And when I'm talking about dieting, I'm also talking about lifestyle changes. I'm talking about keto I'm talking about whole 30. I'm talking about, oh, just eat less and exercise more. They don't work. And we have scientific evidence that they don't work. Well, we don't have a scientific evidence of any kind that they do work. It turns out that almost anyone can lose weight in the short term, up to about six months to a year. And then you get it back. And there's a good chance that you're going to gain a little more. And you know, you're totally allowed to ask me about this, you can contact me I will give you all the studies that you want. I will not debate with you endlessly about it. Because the proof of the burden of proof is on the diet industry, not me. But, you know, we just we don't have any proof. There's no, there's no approach that makes body smaller in the long term. So what what does that mean for bodies? What does that mean for health? And so Health at Every Size is tied to to a weight neutral framework for health. Because if we don't have a way to make bigger bodies smaller, no matter how much we might feel like we shouldn't be smaller, there's just no practical way to do it for about 95% of people, well, then what is health look like? Because we've tied health to thinness so much. That that there's there can really be a grieving process. Unknown Speaker 48:00 When you finally figure out that, I'm probably not going to be able to significantly change my body size, I'm not going to be able to access that. So Health at Every Size says even if you are in a body that is disabled, even if you were in a body that is fat, once again, coming back to what does health look like for you? What does health look like for you when you're not pursuing weight loss? Because it turns out that weight cycling, which is what happens when we go on a diet, we lose weight, and then we can't sustain it and we gain it back. And then we go on a different diet and we lose weight. And then we fall off the wagon and get it back. That's called weight cycling. And it turns out that is actually worse for your health than just being whatever size you're at. Yeah. So so that that's what health IT advertises, I discovered it four or five years ago, and I have gotten really deeply into the community that surrounds that, because I feel like it's so important that we stopped tying health fitness. Because I'm the kind of person where I like to see evidence, I like to see facts. If you ask me to do something, I want to say great, Why should I do that? And? And the answer is because I feel like you should lose weight because then you'll be closer to my aesthetic standard. And you know, what screw here is that, you know, why don't we talk about the world that actually exists? So So rejecting that weight centric, a framework for both medical and haze is very tied to medical treatment and to to healthcare. Um, you know, rejecting that is really, really important because it means that fat people have a better chance of getting quality health care. You know, it's, I think we're going to talk about fat phobia a little bit later, maybe but I have a dear friend who was recently in law in the hospital. And when she walked in, she had to have surgery. It was fairly urgent, and when she walked in, she sat down in the exam room. Five minutes later, the doctor walked in and said, Oh boy, and then informed her that he didn't think he could do surgery on her for this pretty urgent medical issue, because he wasn't sure whether his equipment would fit somebody of her size. And so she's sitting in the hospital, having come into the ER, and she's waiting for urgent surgery. And this doctor comes in and says, oh, boy, and this is normal for people who are very fat. This is how we are normally treated. And Health at Every Size, I feel is our best hope for being treated like human beings in healthcare. Unknown Speaker 50:37 Yeah, thank you for that I what I what I really like about it, and what I appreciate about and I appreciate you sharing your experience with anxiety disorder and chronic illness, you know, those types of things it, to me it, it follows the same logic in that when it comes to our mental health. This, this world ain't binary, right? Like, there aren't good and bad, right? Like we each are beautifully unique. And yet, there's so much systems and pressures and things that that want to put us into these boxes, right? And what I love about Health at Every Size, and just, you know, you being your own best advocate for, you know, you knowing what's best for you like that is the work is like figuring out okay, what's best for, for me, as you put it screw everyone else, because they don't know what's best for me. Right? Yeah, that's a like, That's such a self honoring beautiful thing that I think is the work of life is like getting to that point is being being confident in that and being okay with our bodies and being okay with the fact that Yeah, I've got clinical depression. And, and, and the thing that's going to make it better at times is me honoring myself and honoring my body and figuring it out and being curious and asking the questions, right. Yeah, I just love it. Unknown Speaker 52:06 Yeah, and it's so important that we be that we release enough body shame that we are able to advocate for ourselves, I spent about a decade on a medication that I did not need. Because I had a doctor, a primary care doctor who lied to me, told me I had a condition that I did not have, and put me on a drug that she hoped would cause weight loss. Um, and I went through a series of doctors after that, who refused to, to give their approval. I mean, I could have just stopped taking it but but I wanted I sort of I wanted that doctor approval. And it took me 10 years to find a health every size doctor who ran some blood tests and said, No, you don't have of course, you don't have that condition, you should not be on this medication, and we, you know, stepped off of it. But I had a whole series of doctors who didn't want to give their approval to take that medication because they thought it might make me smaller. For the record I we exactly what I did 10 years ago within three pounds. So that that that didn't work, I'm I'm also very lucky that that particular medication is notorious for causing some really unpleasant side effects. And I'm also very lucky that I didn't have those, my body just said, I don't know what to do with this. So we're just gonna pass it on through I guess. So I didn't have you know, I didn't have any results on that either way, but, but you know, there are real people's lives at stake. It's really, really important that people in bigger bodies can access health care and can access the whole life that people in that our bodies get to access. Unknown Speaker 53:47 I'm curious. So most of us are well, us here are like 30s 40s, but the people listening are a lot younger. And so they've I can't imagine growing up in this time with the additional pneus of social media which did not exist the internet, my gosh, but I was younger kid and there's all these different ways to bully about all these things that aren't the same as you and I don't know how to drive but I feel like how do you erase so many years of like, brainwashing like, Unknown Speaker 54:19 I Unknown Speaker 54:21 I feel brainwashed as a 36 year old but I can't imagine how brainwashed with the perfection that is Instagram and social media and marketing campaigns on this level that's constantly at you like and I know it's like a way like had you I feel like there's a part of you that might have like, you might have to want to be on brainwash, but I think people are gonna argue like with people argue with things that they don't feel comfortable with, or they don't understand or they don't find external. So how do you I feel like there's like a 500 part question, but like, we need like a program like unbroken rushing program for so many different things, but this included Unknown Speaker 54:58 Yeah, and you know, and I I didn't, of course, again, I'm 40. I also grew up without, without oxygen, a lot of pop culture so. So you know, other people will have at least as valuable perspectives on this, but, but in addition to the sort of practices or exercises we talked about earlier, to sort of start examining or releasing body shame, I think it's the most important to realize that if you are feeling like you don't measure up to a standard, or like, oh, everybody else is really cool. And I'm not or everybody else is thin. And I'm not remember that, for one thing, these are standards that are being imposed on you, they don't come from within you, someone has told you that for a reason. And that reason may have been that that person, that person was holding a standard because they wanted to fit in or they, you know, they they had a reason of their own for doing that. That reason may have been profit, which should shouldn't take you off. Because, again, how dare anybody tell you that you're, you know, that you're inadequate, so they can make money, but, but be skeptical of those messages. And, you know, be aware that everything is photoshopped, as I said before, everything is photoshopped. Everything is on real. They have those deep fake videos now where they can even make videos of of somebody. Somebody like speaking, that's not actually speaking. Um, even even porn is wildly photoshopped, whatever you're seeing in porn is not is not representative of what people's bodies look like, you're fine down there, whatever, whatever bits and pieces you have. And I'm not talking about body dysmorphia, and I'm not talking about folks who are uncomfortable with their current their current bits and pieces, that that's not what I mean. But, but your bits are fine in the sense that they are normal and Okay. Um, and of course, I'm talking about sexy bits, but also, you know, all the rest of your bits are fine to whatever, whatever is going on with your armpits, they are okay, and normal, whatever's going on with your hands and your feet and your hair. It is normal, you are with it? Well, within the range of human variation. Um, and you know, all that stuff you're seeing on Instagram, it's all filtered is all Photoshop, you know, even if, even if they're not using actual Photoshop is everybody seems like everybody's having fun. But you it's not true. They're all unhappy, too. I assure you, you know, because we all put, we all put curated, curated and limited versions of ourselves on the internet. So if all your friends seem like they're doing something, and you're not, or you don't have access, or you don't think that would be fun, there's nothing wrong with you. So, you know, be very skeptical. The messages, you're getting demand facts, demand evidence, demand peer reviewed studies. Seriously, if if you get one thing out of this is to learn to be comfortable with a particularly when it comes to weight loss. But anything, anything involving health, ask them where's the peer reviewed study? Yeah. I mean, it's, yeah, it's not gonna make you super fun at parties. I mean, seriously, but but, you know, where's the evidence for this? And you know, some dude on YouTube said, so is not evidence, asked for peer reviewed studies, say, where's the evidence, the whole 30 works in the long term. Where's the evidence that keto works in the whole term, the long term, whenever diet comes out two years after we record this, where's the evidence? Because you're allowed to ask, you don't have to believe whatever somebody on YouTube says, or somebody in one news article or whatever. But I think I think the other thing is that, particularly if you are young, to understand is that your body will accumulate stories, there is nothing you can do to prevent that, it doesn't matter what, it doesn't matter how much you moisturize, you're probably going to get a wrinkle eventually, like it's gonna happen, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter what kind of skincare skincare routine you have, or what exercise regimen you have, or how I don't know what kind of acne medication you might be using, or hair dye, you're gonna accumulate stories in your body, you're probably going to have a stretch mark, if you are a sis woman, you were probably gonna end up with stretch marks, totally normal 90% of women and something like I don't know, 20% of men have cellulite and stretch marks. It's cool. Just you know, just be aware that your humanity makes you worthy. You don't need anything else to be worrying. Unknown Speaker 59:28 Yeah, well said. I was gonna say, you know, thinking about like, what Instagram tells us and all the all these external forces, like, in my mind, the The goal is to get to a place where we don't even see those external forces, right? They're not even forces. They're just, you know, not even a distraction. We just don't even see it. Right? We were we get to a place where we can where the value that we have is how we exists in what we bring to ourselves. Right? And nothing else. And like that, that that is like where I, you know, I think that that takes time, like anything and its ups and downs like anything but yeah, you know, honor your humanity because it's, it is a beautiful thing you know? And yeah, keep keep telling others this graph is what I say. Let's talk about thin privilege. So I, as a straight white sis male in a thin body help me understand you don't hold on, let me let me let me retract help Unknown Speaker 1:00:44 you be a woman. Unknown Speaker 1:00:48 I am not putting the burden of you teaching me I want you to share what thin privilege means to you for the listeners. Unknown Speaker 1:00:56 Sure. And you know, I'm privilege is really tricky to talk about. Because because we think of privilege as being something like or it's the same kind of achy feeling that you get when you use the word entitled, like, Unknown Speaker 1:01:09 Oh, I, we hold on, I'm sorry to interrupt, but like, the discomfort, the discomfort is the place that we can grow and find that perspective that that is a place we all need to be often. Unknown Speaker 1:01:22 Yeah, the discomfort is the growth zone. And so so I'm not talking about the achy, the discomfort, the uncomfortable feeling to warn you off, but rather to tell you that this is a hard topic, and it's okay to be uncomfortable as you're hearing this or thinking about this. Yeah, because privilege. You know, some as a general thing, is an unearned, unearned advantage of some of some kind. Um, it might be that, you know, I don't know, I'm gonna go back to elementary school and say, I'm in it's Field Day, and I'm in a race and, and everybody is everybody is starting at the starting line. But I cheated because the teacher wasn't looking and I started two steps ahead, you know, I kind of edge forward right, right before the whistle. So that would be that would be an unearned advantage. And some people and some bodies are given these unearned advantages by by our culture. It's not like there's a Central Council that sits down every year and says, well, Bob over here was really good. So he gets privileged this year. You know, it's not it's it's a it's a little bit nebulous. But it doesn't mean I think, the most important thing to understand about privilege, because I think the reaction I know, the reaction that I had, when I learned about this was, well, my life isn't easy. I didn't, I wasn't given any advantages, What is this nonsense, and you know, it having a privilege, it doesn't mean that your life is easy. Or, you know, because people of all types have hard lives, we all have challenges, it just means that the particular particular area where you have privilege, it means that in that area, your life is harder because of this, because of this specific area. So I grew up poor, I grew up in a rural area, like I said, I was very limited in my access to opportunities and, and, to a certain extent, higher education, and I am college educated, and that is one of my privileges, but I had to fight for it. Um, you know, but I'm white, I'm extremely white. So, so had I been the exact same person in the exact same situations with the exact same challenges, and I was not white, my life would have been harder, because of that factor, I would have had additional challenges thrown at me because of that. So so it just, it just means that that particular thing doesn't make your life harder. And so it doesn't mean that you're a bad person, either. Like everybody on the planet, okay, I'm not gonna make that claim. Many people on the planet have some kind of privilege. Maybe you are white, maybe you are. Maybe you come from a family, where your parents had higher education. Maybe your parents are college educated. Maybe you have some kind of financial privilege. Even if you're not wealthy right now, maybe you have wealthy parents or some kind of safety net. Maybe you are thin, maybe or, or average sized. Um, maybe you are cisgender. Maybe you are heterosexual, maybe you're able bodied, there are many, many more. And the thing is that all of these overlap, too, and they're all spectrums. So you can't even really create like a fun chart of this or anything because it's so complicated. Because if I were a, a gender is also you know, we Know that men in general have more power than women do. So that is also a another one of these privileges. So if I were a black woman, who was somewhere in the LGBT community with a visible disability, that's a lot of challenges still stacked up, even before we get to just the regular stuff that life throws at us. And so when we talk about, that's also what intersectionality means, if you've never heard of that, it means that you have, you may have multiple layers of these challenges, and they are cumulative. So, so my whiteness does not erase my status as a woman, my whiteness, Unknown Speaker 1:05:41 you know, does not erase my status as a fat person. But it does help because that is a privilege that helps to balance out areas where I don't have privilege. So it's really complicated. It also depends on your life situation and your, you know, your current situation. And, you know, it's one of those things where it's uncomfortable, and it's tricky. But it's also really important to understand. Because when we talk about thin privilege, um, these are the ways in which being living in a thin body, whether it's temporarily or all the time, lets you move around in the world in a way that is not accessible to somebody in a fat body. Um, I am a Lane Bryant 2628. Um, I know that that's not very exact, but you know, here we are, and Unknown Speaker 1:06:30 we'll sizes are not exact anyway, and you'll buy a totaling somewhere, and you'll be like a size 12 and then a size 30. And then this is extra extra small. And I'm like, how is this possible? Like, why don't go by you can't go by sizes anymore? Unknown Speaker 1:06:44 No, no, but but you know, it gives us somewhere to start at Yeah, and so that means that I am not anywhere near the largest possible human body. But at the same time, I have significant, a significant lack of privilege in the way that I move through the world physically. Um, as we've, as I talked about earlier, I have had significant challenges getting proper health care, through my adult life. Um, I, I am at the point now where I really need to airplane seats, which is a huge financial challenge. And it means it means that I have employment limitations. Because if I mean, I run my own business, but if I went back to an office job, like I used to have, and I, I would be really hesitant to take a job where I had to fly all the time, because they would have to buy me two seats. Can you imagine going to an employer that you don't know, in an interview? and having them look at you and be like, Oh, no, no, I'd have to buy that person to seats. Are you freaking kidding me. Um, it means that when I walk down that aisle on the airplane, to get into the, to get into the airplane, see everybody glares at me. And you know, and flying is its own privilege to it requires financial privilege, but, but it's a really easy, it's a really easy way to visualize what I'm talking about, it means that my clothing is way more expensive and very, very limited. So I'm not able to express myself through fashion in the same way that someone in a thinner body might. And I have, I have a whole Instagram series on this. Almost every Wednesday, I've talked about them privilege, and I have 1000 examples. If I wanted to go horseback riding, I would have to find, you know, somewhere that had the not only was willing to deal with me, but had a horse that was the appropriate size to take my weight. And some of these examples seem really petty. I mean, I'll be honest, I don't have any interest in horseback riding. So some of these examples seem really petty, but when you add them all up, there are significant challenges to moving through the world in a fat body. I went to a doctor for several years where I couldn't sit down in the waiting room. I had to stand. Um, and quick Unknown Speaker 1:09:01 I, I will say hearing you say that it does not sound petty To me, it sounds like you know, I, I you know, go into a doctor's office and I have a place to sit right? Like, these are things I take for granted, right? Like I can walk an airplane and sit in a seat and be fine, right? Like, these are things that that I just have grown accustomed to and this is this is what I've earned, right? Like as my privilege allows me or affords me right. And I don't have to think about that. So that's like an image like like putting myself in your shoes for a second and imagining myself having to like go through that or have people stare at me right like as I'm walking through the airplane, or having to like feel like I have to use two seats or whatever. Like that's, that's a that's a inconvenience because the world isn't set up. For someone like you as it is for me. Unknown Speaker 1:10:00 Yeah, yeah. And I think I think what's important to understand there are 1000 directions I want to go in. But and i think i think the reason that that I am a little bit defensive about some of these things not being like Earth shaking is because I'm too used to Instagram trolls, because I do talk about this every week. And I get trolled a lot about it. Because Because some of these things are kind of, you know, the things that I talked about on Instagram, occasionally, they're a little bit petty, like there's one company I can buy rain boots from one on the planet. And it turns out the those boots are, are meant for wide feet, because most people in larger bodies have wider feet. My feet happen to be narrow. So the one company on the planet that makes rain boots. Unknown Speaker 1:10:44 They don't fit very well though. Like it. So you have if your feet are narrow, or do you have like an abnormally large size foot? Like I'm confused why you can't buy raincoats? Unknown Speaker 1:10:58 Oh, well, I can't they just don't. Okay, so my calves are wide. That's, that's okay. Yeah, so my calves are quite wide, but my feet themselves are very narrow. So because the boots themselves are wide in the foot, as well as in the calf. Because Because most larger people have wider feet proportionately, I happen to have very narrow feet, but my cows are very wide. So to get boots, the one company that will make rain boots that my calves fit, my my feet are so narrow, I have to like pat it, it's, it's really, it's really clunky. And but and like, That's it. That's it for me for Rainbows, like I you know, there's a specific type of hoodie I've been looking for for like five years, because lands in stock making it in my size. And so I can't get that that particular kind of fitting anymore. And yeah, that's petty. But when you again, when you add it all up, it's called the mental load of a, it's called a mental load of oppression, when you live in an oppressed population of some kind, when you lack a privilege, due to something about your body, you have a mental load that you carry around with you. And it's a spectrum. Because Yeah, I live in a body, that's pretty fat. But again, I'm nowhere near there, you know, I have friends who are much, much larger than I am, and, and face many more barriers, because the thing is, if I have to, I can still fit in when airplanes eat. Um, I, you know, I had to stand in that doctor's office, which is, you know, and I eventually fired that doctor, because I asked her three times to put a chair in or in a waiting room that I could sit in, and she didn't, so I left, um, but like, I could still fit in the aisle in her tiny little waiting room, you know, so I have privileges that my larger friends and colleagues don't. So, so thin privilege is very much of spectrum. And, you know, the, so the smaller that your body is, in general, the closer you're going to be to current beauty standards, and the more privileges you're going to be awarded as a result. And so I think it's really important to understand about privilege, that this is used to reinforce systems of oppression. Because you know, when you are in a body that is thin, or is able bodied, or any of these other, these other layers, you're always aware that if you're not good enough, if you're not compliant enough or obedient enough, if you eat too many cookies, and that's not, that's not what it is very difficult to eat yourself into our larger body size. In any rate, we have this cultural idea of if you if you eat too many cookies, or if you know, if you're not complying enough, if you don't go to the gym enough, you're going to be treated like that, suddenly, you're going to be excluded from public life, I have friends who sew all their own clothes, because they cannot buy clothes, there are not clothes made for them that they can buy. So they they and also there aren't patterns for clothing that go that large. So they had to learn to make their own patterns to make their own clothing so they can leave their house. And this is not they're not it's not two people on the planet. You know, this is a pretty significant portion of the population who can't buy clothing. So, so this is, you know, this is used to reinforce body shame. Body shame is a tool that is used to reinforce this oppression, because nobody wants to be treated like that nobody wants to be spent on in public, nobody wants to have a doctor come into the room and go, Oh, God, nobody wants to not be able to fit in an MRI machine. Nobody wants to have to go be weighed with the horses, to have a scale that can weigh at home. You know, that's horrible. And that's how thin people are kept in line and how fat people are kept in line to because if diets actually worked, then we could have a hope that if we just invested enough of our time and money and resources that we too, could be normal human beings and not treated like her. And so I think it's really important to understand that there are larger frameworks because we One of the most frequent push backs I get when I talk about this is, if you don't want to be if you don't want to be treated like dirt, just lose weight. And of course, the thing is that that's not how bodies work. And so so these standards have been very deliberately over several 100 years set up to be attached, excuse me to be a catch 22 it's supposed to be impossible, because that's how the thin people get kept in line. Because it because if you don't want to be treated like that, you'd better starve yourself, you'd better shape up, You'd better stay in line, or you're going to be one of those people, those people on the scooter or at Walmart that you're snickering at, you know, what can happen to anybody? Yeah. Unknown Speaker 1:15:43 I mean, gosh, I just love your brain and I so value your input on this topic. We, we do, we're running a little long, so we do need to wrap it up. But so appreciate all of your wonderful ideas. And again, I love the work you do. Please tell the listeners Lindley, the work that you do and where they can find you. Unknown Speaker 1:16:06 So you can find I have my fingers in a lot of pies. I have a lot of things going on, but I didn't find that phrase. Can Unknown Speaker 1:16:12 I tell you that? That's amazing. Unknown Speaker 1:16:15 And the answer is the best one is pecan. Obviously, no. Unknown Speaker 1:16:21 You are so Southern. You are showing it right now. Totally. Unknown Speaker 1:16:26 You can find all of my pies including the best one pecan. Totally. Okay, buddy liberation, body liberation. photos.com. Also, if you google me, I have a unique name. Whatever comes up, it's probably gonna be me. I'm on Instagram at body liberation with lynley that's where I do a lot of my education work and a lot of my a lot of my talking about privilege and body image and body shame and that sort of thing. That's all on Instagram body liberation with lynley. Unknown Speaker 1:16:56 I will tell you, I will say that if they just type in Lindley, you are the first one that comes up. So if they didn't catch that Instagram name, you will still come up I promise. Unknown Speaker 1:17:05 It's me. Yeah. Yeah. My I did take my husband's last name when we married. So between the first and last name, it's Yeah, it's a unique combination. So I'm on there on Instagram. I'm on Twitter under Lindley ashline, although I don't really use it. Sorry. Um, if you if you look me up on Unknown Speaker 1:17:21 cesspool, Unknown Speaker 1:17:23 yeah, that's, that's why I don't use it, that I'm old, so I don't understand it. Um, if you look me up on YouTube, I'm there. I'm on Facebook at body liberation with Lindley ashline. And I have an awesome free newsletter that I send out every Monday. That's called the body liberation guide. And that's where we do deeper dives into a particular topic. It's only it only gets so long, because it's an email you're only gonna read so much. But that is where I where I produce longer original work on on these type of topics. I think next week's is about someone who was asking I talked a lot about using your voice, and when it's appropriate, particularly if you are in a thin body when it's appropriate to use your voice to talk about body positivity and body liberation. And so next weeks is a reader question on on, you know, I live in a thin body, when is it appropriate to use my voice so that should be pretty interesting. Unknown Speaker 1:18:18 Nice. That's great. So listeners, all of those links will be in the show notes for this episode. Lindley, thank you so much for being a guest on it's okay to feel. Unknown Speaker 1:18:29 Thanks for having me. Unknown Speaker 1:18:30 It was so good to have you. I'm so glad you're on. Thank you so much for listening. If you love the episode, we would love for you to subscribe and leave us a review. For more information or just to say hello, head over to Instagram at Nami underscore OC and ami underscore OC or say hi to note at you me empathy, or me, Jennifer, Jennifer Lynn, Jamie and I PHGRLYN Thanks. Have a beautiful day. Transcribed by https://otter.ai