Unknown Speaker 0:07 Hello, welcome to it's okay to feel with Jennifer and known a nominee OC podcast where we explore mental health topics that help you feel your feelings and feel a little less alone. We're so happy you're here. Now, on to the show. Unknown Speaker 0:23 Welcome to it's okay to feel my name is known wells. This is the official podcast of Nami, Orange County. And I am one of two co hosts. My other co host is my dear friend, Jennifer Lynn. Hello, Jennifer. Unknown Speaker 0:40 Hello. That's funny because I wanted to co hosts also. Unknown Speaker 0:45 Oh my God, who is the other? Unknown Speaker 0:47 I don't know. I haven't met him yet. Unknown Speaker 0:49 Nor have I reveal yourself. Unknown Speaker 0:53 We're waiting to hear from you. Unknown Speaker 0:56 So, yeah, today, today on the show, we're talking about anxiety. Unknown Speaker 1:02 I know nothing about that. Yeah, Unknown Speaker 1:04 we know nothing about anxiety. We're just two humans living with anxiety and Unknown Speaker 1:09 perfect. Unknown Speaker 1:11 Yeah. Today's interview. Before we get to the interview, we're going to talk about our experiences with anxiety. But today's interview is with Amanda Stern, who's the author of a wonderful book called a little panic. And Amanda is from New York, she is a friend. She is a wonderfully anxious person in the best type of way, and I can't wait to share that interview with her. But before we get to it, let's talk about anxiety as it pertains to our little noggins. Unknown Speaker 1:46 Now I can't that's one of the phrases of our podcast. Yes, the Unknown Speaker 1:51 Easter eggs and all the others. Unknown Speaker 1:53 Hashtag noggins. Yes. In one word, No, I'm just kidding. Describe your relationship with anxiety. What is anxiety mean to you? Unknown Speaker 2:05 And knowing does that count? Is that a word? I mean, it is a word. It's so I described. It's not one word. Now I'm just gonna make multiple words. But I feel like my anxiety is like, two, it feels like two different things sometimes. Like sometimes it feels like you're laying in a beautiful flower field, like on your back looking at the sky. But there's like Wizard of Oz, but not as creepy and scary as Wizard of Oz. Except there's like, dozens of bees above your head. Like they're all buzzing and they're really close to your head and like there's so much noise. And they're all like, I don't know, like so that's like one anxiety worried Unknown Speaker 2:48 about getting stung in this scenario? Unknown Speaker 2:50 I don't think so. I think it's just like the chaos of like, all these bugs, and all the noise of all the bees. buzzing? That is a good question. And the other one is, I feel like if you're sitting in a chair and someone's putting up like stacking a bunch of books on your head, like because it feels like you're just drowning. Unknown Speaker 3:09 And heaviness. Yeah, Unknown Speaker 3:11 those are good. Unknown Speaker 3:13 Yeah, descriptions of what anxiety can feel like, for me, it would be like the bees buzzing but you know, the potential reality of them harming you, you know, all of a sudden, they decide like, Hey, we're hanging out here. We're having a good time. But like, there's you see that guy down there? Let's destroy his face or whatever, you know. So there's the fear of like, what is going to happen and that's for me is like what anxiety is it's future tripping and I think the late comedian Harris whittles called anxiety future tripping I think that's what were the lead from him. No, I didn't. I'm honoring him because he was a wonderful writer. He wrote on parks. Oh, really? Yeah, he was he was actually in parks. He was one of the animal control guys, the guy with a beard. And his his his sister. Stephanie whittles walks. She wrote this book called everything is horrible and wonderful. Oh, yeah. And it it's a wonderful book. It's a memoir. It's about her relationship with Harris and his addiction with opiates and his ultimate death but anyways Unknown Speaker 4:36 future tricky things here. Unknown Speaker 4:37 Yeah, future tripping it's it's about thinking about the future right? It's about like worrying about what's to come right like yeah, is the is the How am I going to do on the test tomorrow is you know, is the world gonna end tomorrow? You know, there'll Unknown Speaker 4:51 be birds at my next house. Well, they Unknown Speaker 4:54 will there be birds? Unknown Speaker 4:56 Yes. Fear everyone has that just me? Yeah. Unknown Speaker 5:00 Jennifer's living in the in in Alfred Hitchcock's the birds. But it's the Unknown Speaker 5:05 opposite because I want the birds to be. Unknown Speaker 5:08 Oh, right, right. These are not menacing birds. So Unknown Speaker 5:11 it's Hitchcock. Alfred. Unknown Speaker 5:15 Got it. You you mixed up his name I see. A good one. Unknown Speaker 5:20 So Unknown Speaker 5:23 do you do you experience anxiety on a daily basis? Unknown Speaker 5:26 Yes. But it feels different. Like, today's anxiety was, like more a mixture of like, I'm part of it was like, there's so many tasks to do. But it's not like, pre baby when like, you could just kind of work through them. Like where you could tell yourself like, you'll just work through them. Just get it through. You Unknown Speaker 5:47 had a baby, not when you were a pre baby. Unknown Speaker 5:51 When I was in my mother's stomach, I was worried. No, before I had my son were like, um, you can be like, okay, just get through, like each task, like write a list. And like, it's more like, holy crap. I have like, 10 minutes here, 10 minutes here, and like, a few hours later, like, and there's 26 things like I, I don't know how to, like, prioritize when they all seem important. Like, because it's not like I could cross them off the list, but like, 10 minutes of time, Unknown Speaker 6:21 right? So you get you feel good when you can cross a thing off the list? And if you can't, then it's dangerous times? Unknown Speaker 6:31 Well, I think it's more like the books are on my head and that type of anxiety because like, I mean, there's this podcast, and then there's like, stuff for the rd agency. Like it's all stuff that has like quick deadlines that I have to get done accents of packages out that like that people ordered, which are all good things. It's all blessings. But like, it's very hard to like, focus and get the grade grade. Is that a word? Unknown Speaker 6:55 The term aid Unknown Speaker 6:56 delay? No, like, Unknown Speaker 6:58 when you're like, Alright, let's just write the show notes for today. And then like, someone's pulling on your arm, and then you're like, Okay, yeah, and then they're like, No, okay, let's refocus my brain and get the show notes. And then someone pulls your arm and then you do that like all day, and they're still like, 30 something else things. So that was one of the things. And then there was like a few optional things. Unknown Speaker 7:21 There. I won't get into that. Okay. Unknown Speaker 7:25 Because they're, you know, hearing you say that one of the great tools of managing anxiety is to like, break it down. Meaning like, let's, let's be a little bit more curious about what's going on. Let's ask questions, let's, let's maybe look at this in a different perspective, too. Because like, a lot of anxiety is emotional, right? It's like you thinking about the the deadlines, and you think about all the things and they're all sort of whirling around your brain, but Unknown Speaker 7:55 those are the bees. Unknown Speaker 7:56 Those are the bees, right? Those are the killer bees. And but sometimes, at least for me, if I can take a step back and allow myself to look at the things and maybe, you know, in your case, like, provide a different sort of approach to organization, or even just allowing yourself to like, so what if, what if I just do these five things today? You know, not worrying about deadlines, you know, for now, and maybe a future state of Jennifer is, hey, maybe I don't have 30 things in a day. Maybe that's not like a sustainable thing. You know, I know you want to, like keep making money. And obviously, that's important and like fulfilling for you in your creative life. But maybe there's a different approach to just managing your time and your energy and understanding that like, hey, I need to like coordinate breaks, I need to, you know, all that stuff like that. Unknown Speaker 8:53 You know what, my break was getting a cavity? Unknown Speaker 8:58 Sad? Um, no, it's just like, you know, when they say, Well, I know I can't think of the phrase, but like, the raid to Brady Exactly. No, it's like, all these wonderful things fell in my lap at exact same time. So like, the podcast, kind of like they asked me to be on podcast. Sure. And then a month later, I got like, 12 wholesale orders I have to fill and then I got accepted, like an agency signed beyond. But there's like, with the podcast, there's a lot of work to do. And then it got to, you know, a really quick turnaround podcast and I need to make like 20 actually more like 150 pieces of art before December, and then fill the orders it just like wonderful blessings, but like it all happen at the same time. There is a phrase that I just can't think of what it is, is Unknown Speaker 9:44 serendipity. Unknown Speaker 9:47 Oh wait, that's something else from Jungle Book. Unknown Speaker 9:51 Oh, you're thinking of the bare necessities. Yeah. We're dating ourselves. I mean, I so let me ask you, this is Is that kind of serendipity? All the things all the exciting things happening at once? Is that typical? Unknown Speaker 10:07 No, Unknown Speaker 10:08 no, I've been waiting for something good to happen for so long. Unknown Speaker 10:14 Okay, how are you? Like, how was it before? This sort of Unknown Speaker 10:20 anxiety over my art sucks? Am I fulfilling my purpose? Am I doing enough for mental wellness? Like, does anyone like me? Unknown Speaker 10:30 Like interesting? Okay, so there's a there's maybe a self esteem component to it. Yeah, no, Unknown Speaker 10:37 no word. And then I, we've discussed it, like, just the two of us, like, my, Unknown Speaker 10:43 the two of us, we can make Unknown Speaker 10:48 about singing songs on the show, Unknown Speaker 10:50 I will tell you that, um, if they're, well, your audience might be younger, so maybe they don't have children. But like, every now because I listened to so many kids on everything you say, there's a kid song to go with what you're saying. And I want to sing it to you. Unknown Speaker 11:06 No, I hear you. Unknown Speaker 11:07 But um, Unknown Speaker 11:09 no, I don't remember Unknown Speaker 11:10 I derailed you. Shot. Unknown Speaker 11:15 Um, Unknown Speaker 11:16 what were we saying? Unknown Speaker 11:19 We're too old, it'd Unknown Speaker 11:20 be podcast. Oh, go back to my wireless, Unknown Speaker 11:25 my worth is tied to money. And so like, I'm unhealthily. I know, it's like an issue I have that I'm trying to work. But like, right now I'm in this place with like, wow, like, I feel valued not only financially, but like, valued in general of like, my mission in life, because they asked me to be a co host of this podcast, I feel valued and somewhat financial so far, because this amazing agency is going to help me like push me forward. And I already sold like a car that will be up next year, which is exciting. And then I just had, like, 20 wholesale orders, which I've been wanting for years, and, and I just got them all at the same time. Like, it's all amazing. It feels really good. But it's it's hard to get everything down when your work hours are like seven to 11 at night. Yeah, which, again, it's my fault. I don't want a babysitter, but like, it's, we're in a pandemic. Unknown Speaker 12:24 Yeah, I mean, this is maybe a unique situation is a super unique situation. There are definitely, there are definitely some things that I think our listeners can relate to, which is certainly like the feeling of like, Am I making a difference? You know, and tying that to like, our anxiety. I mean, I will just feel the same Unknown Speaker 12:42 way. So let's talk about you know, hold on, hold. Okay, fine. Unknown Speaker 12:49 I mean, I think I just wanted to say to you, Jennifer, that like, I'm proud of you, you're doing a great job. I'm excited to be doing this with you. But yeah, I also feel the same, right? Like, I feel very lucky to be doing this. And it's a good opportunity. And I questioned it because I was like, gosh, I already have a weekly podcast that I want to continue. I have a small business and I'm growing, I have a full time, day job. You know, I have dogs I have, you know, a wife, wife, I need to cook for, you know, all the Unknown Speaker 13:24 care packages to I mean, yeah. Unknown Speaker 13:30 I am I like I am of the mind that, like, I want to do all the things all the time because it makes me happy and life is short. And that's that's that's like a good thing. But like tempering that is important at times, right? rest and balance and stuff. Those things are important those things I'm trying to learn about, but when it comes to anxiety for me, yeah, I do have an anxiety about like, specifically, you know, when you said, Oh, am I making an impact in the mental health space, right? Like that, that piece of it. I have, I worry about some times and I have self esteem sort of wrapped up in it like wondering, why would people listen to me, I'm just a silly boy, right? That he has all this stupid childhood trauma? Why would you listen to me like, but I I'm coming around on that because I at the end of the day, I know that I am going to be a better partner, a better friend, a better contributor to society and my community if I am taking care of myself, if I'm accepting of myself and my heart and the things that bring me joy and my passions, like if I am fulfilled and accepting and loving in that way, it's just gonna you know, it's just going to help the outward right the inward, you know, impacting the outward piece of it, but yeah, I mean, I, I would say that like over the last 10 years, my anxiety has gotten supremely better because I've I've adopted a more sort of a mindfulness sort of presence approach to life. And, and I think, you know, when it when we're talking about anxiety, and one of like the tools of managing anxiety, a lot of it to me is about letting go. And that's a hard thing to do, right? Because especially when we're feeling insecure, you know, our natural responses to want to like control, right? You know, or try to, like, yeah, just control a situation that's even out of our control, I find that the more I'm willing to accept that, there are just a few things I have control over. It's just so much easier. It's such like, like, I can't control if, you know, what I can control is choosing to be do this podcast, right? I could have said yes or no, right. But I can't control now. Thank you. I can't control now. Like how it or I can't, I guess I control now like how, what my relationship to this is now right? You know, is it gonna be an anxious one? What does that feel like? I don't want to do that. Like I don't, I'm here to like, serve and like, do the things that I love. Like, I don't want. I don't want anxiety wrapped up in that because, you know, sure, there, there's always a natural occurring anxiety, like there's that we are primitive, we you know, that's in our evolution, right? anxiety, you know, anxiety is a piece of it. But there's a there's a harmful piece of anxiety that can strip away our joy. And I don't want that. Unknown Speaker 16:35 Do you think everyone feels some sort of anxiety? But either some people aren't tuned in enough or think it's something else? Or do you think some people are just like, let things roll off, like legit lead things? Like, Unknown Speaker 16:48 I think all the above? I think I'd imagine a lot of people because I was like this are experiencing anxiety, and they don't know what it is. Right? It could cause anxiety manifests in our bodies, right? Like, you know, I used to have like, tight chest, right. And in short shortness of breath. And, you know, just you just like, I feel it in my stomach, right. But like anything, it just takes practice, it takes practice to look at it takes practice to be curious about it, it takes practice to recognize is the thought I'm having an anxiety thoughts based in reality? Or, you know, is it just a manifestation of my, you know, anxiety brain that's not based on reality, you know, so that, that takes time and, and effort and mindfulness. And, you know, if you're listening to this, and you are feeling anxiety, because it is anxious times, right? Like, we're living in a pandemic, right, as we've talked about, and we are all experiencing change and newness, that we haven't experienced before and change and you know, new things are always a potential cause for anxiety. You know, that's why like, finding practices, or things in your daily life that can anchor you and remind you of your, you know, your place in the world, and you can still exist and be resilient in that sort of anchored place. Those things are important. Unknown Speaker 18:31 What are some of those things for you? Unknown Speaker 18:34 Yeah, some of those things are, you know, certainly like getting out in nature, running, hiking, being with my dogs, staring at trees. That's the thing I do, I love trees so much. And we, in my, in my, at my house, we have two trees that are over 150 years old, and I just like to kind of look at them and remind myself that like, life is temporary and beautiful. And, you know, and that that kind of helps me. Also, I think just reminding myself that I am connected to something bigger than myself a lot of times, like, whether it's the communities that I've created and this community right and, and, you know, again, it goes back to like, if I can remind myself that caring for myself, and accepting myself is going to have a more positive impact on the world, then that's what I want to do for it for me and for the world. right for me and for the community. You know. You know, breathing has been a big one, you know, like, intentional, like diaphragm sort of level breathing like in and out three breaths, usually, really deep, deep breaths. That can be a very sort of centering, anchoring calming activity. Yeah, how about you? Unknown Speaker 20:02 Um, Nikki, this? Unknown Speaker 20:04 Yes, I can't remember what did this episode I talked about, like what tea and cookies mean, to me, I can't remember if it was in one of our episodes, or maybe it was just us talking to each other, I can't remember, Unknown Speaker 20:15 I don't remember which one. Unknown Speaker 20:16 I like just brief it in case it is this episode for whatever reason, if I'm like really feeling wellmed, like, I know, eating for comfort felt like the best thing. But like, I make it to me, it's like an experience, like, I'm able to like separate from whatever's happening and make like a fresh cup of tea and eat a cookie on a play and never like, in the moment, like walking or whatever, like it has to be like, on a plate, like, usually, I would like to sit down with a baby who might want my cookie, I might not be able to get to do that. And I'm able to like, delay for a few moments. And then I've always had trouble like allowing myself to do self care things like I was raised, where you like you work and work and work and work, like you'll sleep and rest when you're dead, like are retired whenever that's going to happen at this point. And so I would like work myself to death. And so I never allowed myself to do self care. The only self care allowed myself was to read right before bed because I loved reading. But even before having all these actually helped me a lot, because we go for walks all the time. Like that's, I mean, there's very few things especially during a pandemic, you can go do. And in our new house, we actually have sidewalks because this town is really old, and they don't have sidewalks anywhere. But the street does. And it's been a game changer. I know, we've only been here for like a week and a half. But that alone has been a game changer because we take a walk like three times a day. Nice. And we have ducks like a little pond, we have trees and our neighbors seem to be nice so far. And that's such a great like distractions, self care things. Or sometimes I like step away and I ask Allah Oliver for a hug. And then I just watch this human that I made. Again, I know like I'm old, and or maybe you're old too if you're listening and have a kid or maybe you're young and have a kid because my parents were very young. But uh, he's maybe it's made, he's made me anxious in some ways, but so much less anxious in so many other ways. Because I can like step away and be with him and have like, a little tea party and not worry about real life for a little while. Unknown Speaker 22:37 Yeah, you know, hearing you say that it, it makes it there are lots of things to worry about in real life. Right, you know? And, and we can get wrapped up in it. Right, it can be overwhelming. And I just wanted to like, say to the listeners, and to myself and to you, Jennifer, is that? You know, it's, it's weird times, it's hard times it's difficult times. You know, I it, you know, if you're listening to this, you probably have a big heart, and you probably are sensitive, and you probably want to like explore these things. And that is a beautiful gift. But with that comes great responsibility, right, you know, the Peter Parker thing. You know, we we have to have the boundaries like Jennifer's talking about we have to like take time for ourselves, we have to turn the phones off. We have to not read the news every night before bed, right? Like, we need to find the things that ground us we need to find our boundaries. Otherwise it is going to be overwhelming. Because if you're anything like Jennifer and I, we have big hearts and big passions, and we want to do all the things. But the reality is we can't all the time, you know, we could take it so far. But we need to step back to recharge. And that's that's an important piece of anxiety and just self care. Because anxiety is going to be heightened if we're not sleeping well if we're not taking care of ourselves if we're not, you know, the the Mainstays if we're not hydrating and eating, you know, getting proper nutrition and exercising all these things that we hear about. So often you just want to roll your eyes into the back of your head forever. We hear it again and again. But we hear it again and again. Because they're true staples that do make a difference. So, you know, hold on to that find the things that anchor you and I think, you know, your anxiety is going to be better for it. I believe Unknown Speaker 24:45 that self care is not selfish. I know. It's it's like no matter how old or how young you are, because young people have emotions too. And I don't I mean like young like everybody needs to recharge and allow themselves to do like have that time. That day my brain just completely stopped. But like, um, Unknown Speaker 25:08 if you're a baby and you're listening to this, tell your mom Hey, girl, I need. I need time. All right. I was thinking like a cigarette over here. Unknown Speaker 25:20 No, but I was thinking, like, I could think of times when, like, people, when you're 10, when you're 15, when you're, you know, like, people are like, they, they assume because you're young, you have no issues. Like, or like, you don't need that time. Like or you're, you're withering away because you're not socializing or, you know, Unknown Speaker 25:39 it's a good point. Unknown Speaker 25:39 Like, I remember being 10 and feeling so much anxiety for so many reasons, like intense, really young, like I was trying to figure out like, when I think things it started for me at eight. So I'm trying and I don't know, for everyone, everyone's fully different. But, um, you kind of start second guessing yourself and not alone causes anxiety. So like, you could find something that makes you mad, my brain just isn't working my baby's crying. So that lets you like, relax for a minute, or like, I'm trying to think of the word or the phrase, it's like, get away from real life. But there is a word, right? The lay ape, the race get Unknown Speaker 26:21 deeper gray. Yeah, those are synonyms. Yeah, yeah. No, I, I think you hit upon something very important, which is, there's this cultural thing that exists in the world where younger people and I felt this when I was growing up, are just like, you're fine, right? Like, we have this condescension like, toward younger people, like, you know, they're somehow more resilient, and they are resilient. But there's, there's somehow, like, less than in some ways and and that that comes across, like, when you're feeling anxious, or you're dealing with depression like I did, when I was younger, and you're living in that it doesn't feel safe, it doesn't feel like you can talk about it doesn't feel like you can really take the time for yourself because it eventually becomes this thing where you're like, Oh, I have to hide this or this is not okay. And I want to tell the young people listening is that it is okay. Like what you're experiencing is valid and real. And, you know, beautiful, and it's okay to talk about and you should talk about it. It's okay to feel the name of this podcast. Yeah, but um, yeah, I think that I think that does it. I think that sounds about right for this little pre interview on anxiety. I'm excited for you guys to listen to our chat with Amanda stern. It's great. Before we get to that, though, I wanted to just say that it's okay to feel is for informational, educational and or entertainment purposes only. And is not a substitute for medical or psychiatric advice, diagnosis or treatment. We're just silly Billy's with lots of live experience. We're not therapists. I did though once bury a peanut butter and jelly sandwich in the backyard and the next day, dig it up and eat it so you know, pretty serious stuff over here. Unknown Speaker 28:25 And laughing and trying to find the funding statement. Please hold your call is really important. We will get with you shortly. Unknown Speaker 28:35 Doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo to Unknown Speaker 28:44 do Unknown Speaker 28:49 prepared why prepared? Are you go Unknown Speaker 28:53 cuz I was drawing Halloween doodles. The Unknown Speaker 28:56 bottom? Unknown Speaker 28:57 No, it's not as far as the top. It's the bottom. No, it's at the top. Okay, ready? Can I go? Unknown Speaker 29:06 It's at the top. Okay. It's okay to feel it's funded by the orange county health care agency, OC HCA behavioral service, behavioral health services Coronavirus, aid relief and economic security cares act. And we are so grateful because that's how we're making this podcast. Unknown Speaker 29:25 Yeah, thank you. All right. Well, before we do our little signup, where can folks find you Jennifer? Unknown Speaker 29:35 That's a great question. in my living room, Unknown Speaker 29:39 where there are no birds, Unknown Speaker 29:41 there are birds don't nobody, nobody fret. We have birds and salamanders. Um, you can find me online. I Jennifer Lynn calm JNIPHRLYN calm and I've got Jennifer Lynn on Instagram and I Barely post on my podcast page because we're on a hiatus but it's at rainy day diaries pod, but I will be posting all these episodes there for sure. So I think as long as I remember no one remind me about you know? Unknown Speaker 30:16 Yeah, you listeners can follow me and my podcast at uni empathy on Instagram and human empathy on Facebook. My my little small business community is called the feely human collective that's at feeling human on Instagram at Fili human.co feely human.co is where you go and join you go yeah.co is where you go. That's right. Okay. Hey, listeners. Hey, you listening. Remember, your feelings are valid. Your feelings are guideposts on your journey. And it's always okay to feel Unknown Speaker 31:01 welcome to it's okay to feel a podcast by an Emmy OC, and I'm here, myself. My name is known wells, and I'm here with my co host, Jennifer Lynn. Hello, Jennifer. Unknown Speaker 31:14 Hello, no. And how are you? Unknown Speaker 31:16 I'm doing okay. We're recording this via zoom and I can see my face and I hate it. But we can see dear pal, friend, author, Amanda stern. Hello, Amanda. Unknown Speaker 31:29 Hello, how are you? Unknown Speaker 31:32 I'm doing all right. I'm doing all right. How are you? Unknown Speaker 31:35 I'm well, I am sitting inside my dark closet. Waiting for action. Unknown Speaker 31:44 That's right. Well, Amanda, we're here today to talk about anxiety. Yay. Unknown Speaker 31:50 Yay, my favorite. Unknown Speaker 31:54 Tell the listeners a little bit about yourself and what you do, Amanda? Unknown Speaker 31:59 Sure thing. Um, I am a writer and a podcast host, producer person. And I, I really, there's not much to know except for two years ago, I came out with a memoir about growing up with an undiagnosed undiagnosed panic disorder. It went undiagnosed until I was 25. And so the book is about that experience and knowing something is wrong with you, but not knowing the name, and how alienating that is to live inside of that experience in the world. And feeling, you know, completely unseen and misunderstood. So I think that that is sort of the most important thing about me that people should know, for this. Unknown Speaker 32:54 Yeah, well, and the book, I don't think you said it's called Little panic. And it's wonderful. And you know, the listeners if you want to, if you're a person who has anxiety feels like they have anxiety, it's, it's it'll make you feel certainly less alone in your anxiety. Unknown Speaker 33:12 Thank you. Unknown Speaker 33:13 You're welcome. Unknown Speaker 33:14 I'm really good at promoting my own work. I just leave out the title. Unknown Speaker 33:20 So I'm curious. Can you kind of give us a precursor to the book, like talk about your personal experience with anxiety? And then why it 25 you finally figured out like what it was? Unknown Speaker 33:34 Yes. But I feel bad. Jennifer, I didn't ask you. I didn't say hi. And how are you? Unknown Speaker 33:39 I'm just weeping because you didn't ask me. Unknown Speaker 33:42 I was waiting. I was waiting until everyone was quiet so everyone could hear the answer Unknown Speaker 33:49 is good. You may proceed. Unknown Speaker 33:53 So the precursor Well, let's see. So you mean about my life with anxiety? And Unknown Speaker 34:03 yeah, I'd love to know about your personal experience and like and then what happens when you find like to make you would like that a doctor finally tell you what it was? Did you read a synopsis and amazing and be like, that's Unknown Speaker 34:14 what I have. I went not so Alright, so what happened, essentially was that I, since I was a small as my dog who's pretty small. I had this pronounced and all incumbents all encompassing sense of doom and dread. And it sort of organized itself around separation. So anytime I would have to leave my mom to go to school or to go to, you know, on a class trip or visit my dad on every other weekend. I would feel like I was convinced that you would die or disappear or that I would die or disappear. And no matter how many times I left and came back It always felt like the first time. So. So that was a very difficult thing and, you know, it, it sort of grew and branched out as I got older and older. And you know, I didn't do well in school because of it, I had a lot of emotional struggles at home. And when I was growing up, there wasn't really, you know, anxiety wasn't a term that people used about conditions or disorders. I grew up in 1910. And I know thank you, it's, I it's all the formaldehyde I wear as a moisturizer. So I got a pretty intense and my, you know, my mom didn't really know what to do. So she had me tested all the time. And I was constantly IQ tested. And no one really talked to me about why. So I made up all these ideas about myself, and I was convinced I was stupid. And things just sort of kept on getting worse and worse and spiraling out of control. And finally, when I was in my 20s, I became suicidal. And I, one night, I hadn't left my apartment and three weeks, and sort of the last night of that, or what I chose to be the last night of that, you know, I called my mom and I base I said, You know, I know, you're hiding something from me, I know, there's something wrong with me, and you're not telling me what it is. And I think it said, I'm crazy. So just, you know, I'm going to finish the life. We're gonna finish this up and a wrap it up. I'm going to close the store. But I just need you to be honest with me and tell me like, Am I crazy? She was like, you're not crazy. I was like, Oh my god, I cannot believe no one's telling me the truth. Like, I'm literally about to kill myself. I just need someone to tell me that I'm crazy. Because I want to know the name of the thing that's trying to kill me. Yeah. But instead, she was like, come over, she sent a cab I went over. And I had this kind of crazy epiphany. And it was that I suddenly understood that living life in like, encased in dread and fear was harder than facing the fear and dread. And so I, I realized, well, I'm always afraid I'm gonna die. So what makes me think I can actually kill myself, like, what makes me think I can follow through and actually kill myself when I'm so afraid to die. And, like, there must be another way out and the only way out, like I felt with my body, the only thing that would that felt Okay, was facing was walking towards all my fears. Because it was that was easier. That's how horrible my, my dread and, and, you know, fear of death was that it was easier to face my fear than to live inside of it. Does that make sense? Unknown Speaker 38:19 Yeah. Yeah, it's so powerful. And I, Unknown Speaker 38:22 oh, sorry, didn't say, diagnose, oh, Unknown Speaker 38:25 yes, please. Unknown Speaker 38:26 But the next day, so the next day, I went to the doctor, I went to my mom's therapist. And in under five minutes, he diagnosed me with a panic disorder, and said it had gone so long untreated and undiagnosed, that it had branched out into like, five different disorders. So that is the long answer. Sorry, no. Back to you Unknown Speaker 38:49 know, I, part of my response was going to be a joke about how in 1910 there aren't cabs and it was a horse and buggy that you called but but I you know, it's such a telling story about just, you know, growing up in a time where there weren't like language and structures for healing in that way and and I just like I so feel for you, Amanda, and, and going through that and feeling that like, I am all alone on this island of craziness. Like that's that's certainly how I felt growing up. And not knowing what to do but so grateful that you made the choice to face those fears. Even even if you know they were, you know, so so difficult to face. happy you're here friend. Unknown Speaker 39:42 A doctor that you finally went to with your mom finally like, Oh my gosh, I know the perfect person to bring you to like, Unknown Speaker 39:49 well, I don't want to throw my mom under the bus or anything, but it was her therapist. So she was like, Oh, go see my guy who's like thank you. Yeah, that's a classic Unknown Speaker 40:00 Jewish mom thing. You Unknown Speaker 40:02 know, it's totally, Unknown Speaker 40:04 it's hard because there's Unknown Speaker 40:08 so negative, there's so many things that could potentially be wrong, rotten person. So like, my mom had cancer and like 10 doctors in Florida told her she was going to die. But one doctor and you were heard of what she had and said, you're going to live and like she's alive now like and did what he or she had to do. But that's amazing. That's but it's it's horrible, like not that one person could have possibly know absolutely everything. But I'm curious, I'm sure anxiety with lists, like with here way before 1910? Oh, yeah. Yeah, it blows my mind that nobody could at least generalize what you might have. Unknown Speaker 40:46 Well, alright, so here's the second part of the story. The second part of the story is that when I was I'm gonna make up the age because I don't remember, maybe 35 3500 years old? I asked, uh, no, I didn't ask. My mom was like, packing we were she was selling my child at home or getting ready to sell it. And she handed me this folder and asked if I wanted it and, and I was like, what, what is it? And she said, Oh, it's all your evaluations from growing up. And I was like, wait, white, that exists. And so she gave it to me. And I like race tone, and started to read them. And I just I was blown away. Because starting from the age of 11, when I started getting tested, every single one of these evaluations set I had anxiety, everyone, everyone. Unknown Speaker 41:46 They they never mentioned that to you, or you just didn't realize what that meant back then they never Unknown Speaker 41:51 they never mentioned. Well, I didn't know the result. I didn't know I was you know, they didn't tell me. So I think that, you know, when, when you're when you're given when you're when you don't know what you're looking for, you don't know what's important. So when you get an evaluation back and you're reading it, you don't know that anxiety is the crucial element. You don't know, you know, I think that they were so convinced that I had some sort of learning issue that they just kept on looking for the learning issue. Unknown Speaker 42:25 I wonder why though, like, what you're describing doesn't sound like a learning issue. Unknown Speaker 42:29 Like, well, I think that it doesn't, but he but I think what what happened was that they separated the two things. So my, my terror and fear of leaving my mom, they just, they just chalked up to homesickness. But it was my, my doing poorly in school that they were focused on. So they they sort of separated out the issues and took one much more seriously than the other, they elevated one issue, which wasn't ruining my life, and ignored the other, which was ruining my life. And they sort of just flipped it. And so, you know, we know now that anxiety was the thing, that if a doctor had gone through the evaluation with my mom, she would have made a bigger deal out of the anxiety. But the doctor don't go over the evaluations or didn't, then they just send it home. And so my mom read it, and she was like, I don't know how to parse this. And so, you know, she, she would see a couple of buzzwords like, oh, auditory processing disorder, okay, let's send her to an auditory processing disorder specialist. And so they just sort of would, we're trying to narrow down my disability instead of, you know, opening it up and accepting that it was maybe more based on emotion. Unknown Speaker 43:59 Mm hmm. Unknown Speaker 44:02 Do you? Is it helpful for you? Or do you you know, is it is it a, I don't know, a source of anxiety in and of itself to look back on these times when you were younger and feel because it? I don't know, I hear you tell this and it, it makes me feel frustrated. And it makes me feel like sad a little bit, you know, that you didn't have the support you needed until you were, you know, 25 years old or whatever. Unknown Speaker 44:32 Yeah, I mean, it doesn't give me anxiety necessarily, when I'm looking back. it you know, it's only been in the past year or two, that I've been able to feel any sort of sadness for myself as a child. And like, have actual compassion for what I went through. And, you know, I've had I've had maybe two panic attacks this year. And oh, and while I was in one of them, I thought, oh my god, I, I was so brave. I was so damn brave. Like, I suddenly realized, I can barely handle this. And I'm 1000. And when I was a child when I was five, I was going through this when I was four, I was going through this and like, how I survived that I honestly have no idea because it's barely survivable now. And so I've had these epiphany is like, Wow. You know, like, where I'm almost sometimes, like, people often say, what would you say to your younger self? And I just want to thank my younger self for like, you know, like, thank you for, you know, I don't know, for just like hanging in there. Unknown Speaker 46:00 As you were, yeah. Unknown Speaker 46:02 Yeah, I just kind of can't believe I, you know, when you don't know what it is, you don't know. And you're just like, Oh, I'm broken. But when you're an adult, and you have some perspective, it just, and I have a lot of children around me and my friends have kids and like, when I look at them, and I think whole Lee balls like, I do not know how, you know how I handled this, at looking at that little face? So I, you know, I don't have anxiety, I'm starting to have a better sense of compassion and, and gratitude. Really? Yeah. Unknown Speaker 46:43 So when you were diagnosed with the panic disorder? What like, what is the difference between a panic disorder and like an anxiety disorder? Or is it kind of like under the same umbrella? Unknown Speaker 46:58 Yeah, it's pretty, it's pretty similar. Basically, I think an anxiety disorder doesn't like spiral up into panic attacks, I think you have like an anxiety attack, which is, like, basically, if you can, I guess I'm just gonna make this up. The anxiety attack is like, the diving board. And the that you're like, jumping up and down on. And if you like, jumped off it, that would be the panic. But I, I put a panic disorder is when you're, you have panic attacks without a trigger. So it's, you know, there were triggers. For me as a kid, I just didn't know that. You know, I didn't know what they were. But then, because I went untreated and undiagnosed for so long. It just sort of spiraled and I started having panic attacks. If I would be in a room and someone would dim the lights, I would be in a panic, you know, have a panic attack. If I saw, I think, Oh, it's when lights dim. And then I'd be in another situation and the lights would dim and nothing would happen. But someone would like put a plate down and I'd have a panic attack and be like, Oh, I'm afraid of plates, like this different thing every time and nothing made any sense. And so it got to the point where I like couldn't even leave my house, because everything triggered it. And so I think that the difference is that one, you know, regular panic attacks when people just have panic attacks. It's normally circumstantial. It's about something. Yeah. But when it becomes a disorder is when you just have no idea when it's gonna happen. Yeah. You panic, sorry, you panic, in anticipation of panicking. That's sort of the tell, is are you panicking because you're so afraid to have a panic attack? Yes, I got metta disorder. Unknown Speaker 49:03 Right, right. Yeah, I'm reading here from the Nami site, the panic disorder is characterized by panic attacks and sudden feelings of terror sometimes striking repeatedly. And without warning. Yeah, yeah. Unknown Speaker 49:18 But that is basically what a pant that's the definition of a panic attack. Yeah. Unknown Speaker 49:22 I think feels different for you like a panic attack and anxiety. Unknown Speaker 49:27 Yes, they do. Anxiety just feels like I'm walking towards danger. Like there's danger lurking and, and panic is I'm in the danger. I'm actually in danger. Whereas anxiety is like something ominous is about to happen. You have a low grade, like, sense of doom and like, I don't I feel like it's essential that when you're walking down the street and you're like, oh, Um, for some reason, I'm not going to turn the corner. I'm just feeling like, I'm not gonna turn the corner like something bad is gonna happen there. That's anxiety. Panic is when you turn the corner. And you're like, I shouldn't have got to turn the corner. There's like, there's a you know, and there's the man with the knife. Unknown Speaker 50:17 Yeah. You know, Unknown Speaker 50:19 how did your anxiety like, your relationship to anxiety change after you got that diagnosis? Unknown Speaker 50:27 Well, you know, immediately I was I was incredibly relieved to have a name. But of course, we didn't have Google so Unknown Speaker 50:39 I can take out your they can take a PDF botanicus Yes, and my Unknown Speaker 50:45 a my Abacus Unknown Speaker 50:46 and all these panic attacks. Unknown Speaker 50:49 Yes, I had to, you know, I sent even know what I took my quill pen. And I wrote my horse. So it was a real sense of relief. But I still didn't know what to do about it. And you know, it got a little bit complicated, because wet because I was so I was constantly tested. So the anxiety and the sense that I was an idiot, they sort of got tangled. And my anxiety often felt like stupidity on my almost like, oh, if I, if people know, I'm anxious, I'll know I'm stupid. Or if I have a panic attack in front of someone, they'll realize I'm dumb, because I'm not understanding that I'm not in danger. I'm not in a bad situation. And there was some sort of like, integration between all of the stuff that went unsaid as I was growing up, that got tied and Tangled into anxiety. So when I finally got on medication, I thought, Oh, I'm not going to feel dumb anymore. And, and that just didn't happen. Like I, you know, I was like, Oh, I am still convinced I'm dumb. The panic, like the panic attacks, tempered. And, and that was unbelievable. But I still had this, you know, real deep sense of myself as someone who, you know, needed to get tested all the time, because they were not smart. Right? Unknown Speaker 52:33 Yeah. It's like, the core beliefs we take on with our childhood experiences, like you had all of that stuff, tangled up together. And it you know, it Yeah, understandably, would take a long time to untangle. Unknown Speaker 52:46 Right? And then, you know, sometimes I guess, people ask, like, well, when did you you know, when were you resolved, or when did it you figure it all out. And, and it's like, those are moments when I have to just, you know, buckle up and be honest with people and say, like, I don't know about other people, but this is the work of my lifetime, like, this is not, I'm not going to resign, I'm not going to be resolved. So that, you know, I'm always going to be working on this. And even if I don't have panic attacks anymore, this is, you know, I went so long with, with this being undiagnosed and untreated, it's who I am. Even if I'm not having the panic attacks. Like you said, the core of me is still wrapped around that sense of early identity. You know, as as being someone who's scared they're gonna die if they leave who's, you know, thinks they're dumb. So it's a lifelong thing but it but the more I talk about it, the more I'm open with people, the stronger I get, the stronger I feel, at least. Unknown Speaker 54:03 Can you kind of describe what I don't know if it's like a normal Versa harmful anxiety, like something that might be super alerting for saying something like maybe you should seek help or treatment? Unknown Speaker 54:17 So, I think that if you if you notice that you're having a panic attack with some regularity, you know, if you're if let's say in one month, you've had like, four panic attacks. I think even if you have one panic attack, I think that that's something to pay attention to. And if you can't really figure out why if there's no circumstance around it, I would say just keep that as information, see what happens the next month. And if you have another one, then I think, you know probably a good idea to just check in with someone and see what's going on. You know, a lot of people get sort of knocked down by anxiety in their 20s. And they don't, you know, I'm sort of one of the more I don't want to say rare, but like, not a ton of kids have panic disorders, or at least not a ton of kids get diagnosed, because people don't think of it. But a lot of anxiety sort of blossoms and appears in your 20s. So, but I think even if you just have one, it's, it's not a bad idea to like, check in with someone and just say, like, I had a, I had this thing, here's what it felt like to dilla. So that you can learn how to manage your anxiety around whatever the thing is, that led you to have a panic attack. Like, it's never a bad idea to learn skills and tools for your own emotional health. You know, I think that that's something people should be learning in school, I think that's something that people should always be learning and, and reading about. Because, you know, that is one of the ways we have to take care of ourselves. People are always like, well, you should exercise and you should eat well, and yeah, you totally should. But at the same time, we do have room to add in another way of taking care of yourself. And, you know, there should be room made for that too, because it's as important, if not more important, to learn how to manage your emotions, and to recognize what your body what the signals your body is sending you mean. Yeah. Unknown Speaker 56:50 Yeah, there's a couple of things that I wanted to touch on, you know, hearing you say, first of all, just a piece about, you know, how, like, when people ask you a man, like, you know, have you beaten it, or whatever. And when I've gotten that question, too, as it pertains to, like my depression, and I, I, I'd like to say that it's not, we're not in a race, right, where there's no finish line, you know, it's, it's, it's really about, as you said, it's about finding the tools that help us and it is all so unique. When it comes to mental health, it's all so unique, we each have our own different genetic makeup and needs. And I, I think that to think of like, Oh, I'm gonna have anxiety for my lifetime, or I'm gonna have depression for my lifetime, that could be overwhelming to think about. But at the same time, it's, you know, maybe maybe look at it from the perspective of it's a, it's a lens with which we can, yeah, become, to know ourselves better, right to know, our feelings better to, like, look inward. And those are important tools that we need to, we need to learn regardless of, you know, whether we have a mental illness or not. But, you know, there is a strong mindset in and we talked about this in one of our previous episodes, to want to, I don't know if it's stigma, I don't know if it's toxic positivity, or what, but this mindset of like, Are you done with it? Let's, let's move on. And I think that's just a little faulty. It's not sort of based on reality. Unknown Speaker 58:41 That's rude. Unknown Speaker 58:43 It is totally rude. I feel like a lot of it is just, it's also based on the way that the way that we do learn about the way that we do learn about mental health or how to take care of ourselves is through media and Hollywood movies. And, you know, we learn about ourselves by watching fiction. And so we've come to believe something, oh, that's what the that's what life is. That's what life should be. That's what my life should be. And, and that is so damaging, because that is not what life is. And, you know, you don't get over someone's death. You, you, you know, you incorporate it into your life. You're, you know, you incorporate your grief into your life you, you know, I don't want to get over my anxiety and panic disorder. I don't want to forget what this what it is to, you know, I want that connection in some ways, always because it makes me know myself better. And it makes me understand other people. But I also think that it's, you know, it is overwhelming to think, Oh, I'm going to have this for life. And maybe a better way to frame that is, this is a, this is something about me, that will, like, you know, occasionally wave up. It's like a tendency, you know, I love you, right? It's you, like, some people get defensive when you fight with them, and you know, they're going to get defensive. That's one of their tendencies, and they can work on it, if they feel like, Oh, this is getting in the way of things. You know, it's just a, it's a quality, it's a trait in a way. So I think that if people can reframe their own self stigma about it, and just, you know, be like, Oh, this is just one of my qualities out of many, then it's, you know, maybe that that will be helpful. Unknown Speaker 1:00:58 Can you kind of you touched on it a little bit ago, but like, a few suggestions for managing anxiety, but especially like, during this pandemic, if there's anything you've added to like your toolbox, I guess I could use like from yesterday's call. But Unknown Speaker 1:01:14 well, here's the funny thing is, and that's not really funny, haha. But I know that for a lot of people with real severe anxiety, the pandemic has been a place where we have felt calmer than most people. And it's because there's a sense of, there's a soothing quality, knowing that now everyone gets it. It's like, it's almost like I feel safer in the world now that everyone else is so anxious and panicked. And they don't know what's coming. And they're feeling this uncertainty that they don't know what to do with. And I feel safer. Oh, good. Now people understand what this feels like. And I don't feel so alone in the world. So that's just I want to just say that, that a lot of people who are like sort of known for being anxious and panicky, really aren't right now. That said, I think that, you know, in your regular, everyday pre pandemic life, you know, the things that made you feel grounded, right. And you just have to sort of try and find a way to carve space, and sort of give a devote a little bit more time than you usually would to the things that make you feel grounded. I also think that everything that you everything that people are experiencing now is nothing is wrong with you. You know, there's nothing wrong with you. There's, you know, it's not odd to feel like, Oh, I just had a phone call. And now I want to take a nap. You know, everything is draining, everything is draining. And, you know, we we live in a country with this horribly emotionally abusive man and his emotionally abusive administration. And people are some people are trapped at home and emotionally abusive relationships. So it's a lot. And I think that if you can walk, I find walking to be really helpful. Like walk alone, or you know, whatever it is, but I just I think you have to, you have to just find the thing that calms you down and devote more time to it than you would normally. Unknown Speaker 1:03:50 Yeah, no, that's really well said, I like that a lot. I, for me, it's, you know, because for me, like I like to think of likes the right word, but I think of anxiety as future tripping, thinking about what's going to happen. So what helps me is, you know, the antithesis of that, which is trying to stay in the present, right, be mindful of the present. And so what I do is, is, maybe I'll go for a walk, but I really kind of make it this. Here I am. Now I'm looking at this tree. I am listening to the leaves. You know, Russell, I am watching that dog poo, whatever. Unknown Speaker 1:04:32 It's just choking every single episode. That's the Unknown Speaker 1:04:38 that's the underlying theme of this podcast. So funny. But just yeah, just staying in the present, you know, helps me. Unknown Speaker 1:04:45 Yeah. And I think that's a great thing to do. I do know that a lot of people have problems like not problems but have trouble doing that, or you know, don't really understand the point or why or what that means. Which is fine, too. But, but I do think that that leads into, like, you know, another option, which would be meditation is really good. But learning to live with uncertainty, you know, this is the perfect time to, to learn. And the truth is, here's one thing that I can contextualize. The truth is, life is, has always been uncertain. Always. It's just now you can feel it. And I almost had, like, I wrote this down, and I'm gonna butcher it, because I can't really remember what I wrote. But I feel like uncertainty, feeling the uncertainty of right now is like when you can feel your heartbeat. And you think there's something wrong because you would actually feel your heart beating, like you don't normally feel the weight of your heart, right? So when you feel your heart beating, and you're like, Oh, my God, something's wrong, something's wrong. But it's just you're, for some reason you're feeling your heartbeat, or you can hear it. But your heart's always been beating. You're just now tuned into it. And it's that's what uncertainty is. It's the beating of it's like you hearing the beating of your own heart. And you just don't know that you've been hearing it all along. Yeah, you know, and it's just been there the whole time. So life has always been uncertain. Every single day, you do not know it's just now you feel the not knowing. And that makes it a little harder. Unknown Speaker 1:06:30 Yeah, it. It's like when you start to take notice of like your breathing. And there is a moment at times if you you know, are prone to panic attacks or just panic. When you're too focused on your breathing and you're just like, Am I gonna breathe out again? You know, Unknown Speaker 1:06:49 God? Yeah, I know, God right in there. Yeah. Oh my god. This is my last breath. No, no, no, but this one is this is my last breath. Exactly. Unknown Speaker 1:06:58 Well, our mutual friend Tamara CHATZKY what, what Yeah, she's wonderful. One tool that she reminded me of, for anxieties specifically is to, is to say, like, let's say I'm feeling anxious, and then add to it. Now, right now, as opposed to the mindset we can sometimes get to is, when we say that, then it's, we think, Oh, it's this is gonna be forever. This exactly is gonna be forever. But if we can kind of, say to ourselves, right now, this is just happening now. You know, it's not going to necessarily happen in 10 minutes, or, you know, whatever. You know, that's, Unknown Speaker 1:07:42 you know why she said that? Because she's a genius. Unknown Speaker 1:07:46 She has a genius. Unknown Speaker 1:07:47 Yeah, that's why she said, Unknown Speaker 1:07:49 yeah. PhD. Unknown Speaker 1:07:52 Love her so hard. Yeah. I mean, that's a great, it's a great thing to do. It's, and with everything, too, you know, like that I, you know, whenever you're thinking of things in absolutes, like that, it's trouble. And you should always be like, I haven't yet or, you know, I put it in some different form. Unknown Speaker 1:08:14 Yeah, I think, you know, speaking on, like, managing anxiety in tools is like another pieces, trying to fact check. We blow things out of proportion when we're in anxiety mode. I know I do. And when I can ask myself, Is this true? You know, you know, that's helpful. Unknown Speaker 1:08:37 Yeah. Is your brain ever say like, Yes, it is. like, Unknown Speaker 1:08:43 Yeah, it does. But there's also another part of you that is like, okay, but okay. Yes, it is. It feels true. But is it factually true? Is this a fact? Yeah, you know, is this a global fact? Or is this just Are you feeling this right now? Or are you is this factually who you are, and how you feel all the time? You know, I, when I talk to kids, to little kids, I always tell them that one of the things that is helpful is to look for evidence, and to collect facts about the thing that that scares them. So if they're scared to go on a plane, which, you know, do we do that anymore, but if they're scared to go on a plane because of turbulence, then their assignment is to look up turbulence and find more facts about turbulence, because the facts calm you down, you know, the facts that are like, Oh, you, you know, turbulence is just like a pothole in the sky. And it's, you know, put it into some context. It's not as scary. So I think putting, you know, creating facts around things and looking for evidence is really helpful. Unknown Speaker 1:10:00 Yeah, yeah, cuz there is a piece of anxiety that can be about catastrophizing things. And so when we can ground ourselves in facts, yeah, knowledge and stuff, it becomes less about the things our crazy brains do you know, and more about the facts. Yeah, what's in front of me? Unknown Speaker 1:10:20 And another fact? Oh, sorry, let me just add this one thing, like another factor to recognize is that it is a fact that you have had panic attacks in the past or anxiety attacks in the past or have been worried in the past, and you've gotten through it, it's a fact that you have been wrong about many things. And when you are convinced you are, right, it's a fact that, you know, that you that you always get through, everything is temporary. That's a fact. You know, nothing is permanent. So if you can sort of write down the, you know, all the times that you thought you were right, when you were wrong, or all the times you were convinced, you know, you're gonna die and didn't. That is also helpful to like, bring up when you're having anxiety. Unknown Speaker 1:11:18 Jennifer, you were gonna say something. Unknown Speaker 1:11:20 I feel silly. No. Unknown Speaker 1:11:22 Why? Well, Unknown Speaker 1:11:24 I'm curious, like, okay, but the last thing you said did kind of help us like write down all the times you're wrong. But like, we just moved on to the things that I literally panic, I was, like, unnaturally panicking about was that because I loved my old house so much that I was like, well, one, I'm never going to hear my son crying, because instead of being in the room next door, he's gonna be the room across the house, like, which I definitely hear them growing. And the other one was that there won't be any birds in the backyard, because we had so many birds and bunnies in the previous house, that I literally panicked. That that was like my sense of comfort, comfort. And like when I had a bad day, I'm like, a dove appeared like, I know it's gonna be a day. I we have birds, maybe not dogs, we don't dubs, but we do have birds, here. Um, but I can't like fact check, like, does this location have bluejay? Unknown Speaker 1:12:16 Like, right, but, but those are symptoms of other things. You know, the the meeting, those are almost like, it's like your those are almost excuses in a way. You can't fact check that. But you can fact check, like, the fact is, before you moved into that old house, Unknown Speaker 1:12:40 you were in I had fears about that, too. Unknown Speaker 1:12:44 Yeah, but they were dead. But they were different. Right? They weren't about birds. And so you can fact check that you've had the same types of fears around moving. But you did get something from the new house before that you didn't expect that you love and loved. And now you're in a new situation. And it's a fact that there will be other things that are unexpected that you will learn to love that when you move again, you'll be like, but I won't have this. It's you know, you there's going to be something different that you're going to love but it's a fact that you have done this before. And and have gotten through it and I've learned to love and rely on the things you didn't expect. Unknown Speaker 1:13:30 Okay, I'm glad I asked that. Now. Unknown Speaker 1:13:33 The other thing is you get a little walkie talkie you have. I'm sure you have one of those right for your kid. No, get a little walk get a little, Unknown Speaker 1:13:42 you know, like a he's loud. I hear him it's annoying to walk like way further to give him the stupid pacifiers every night but like I definitely hear him. Unknown Speaker 1:13:52 Alright, so you don't miss us crying? Oh, no, Unknown Speaker 1:13:55 I hear it every time I still wake up five times a night. It's great. Okay. But it's not a bad guy thought. Unknown Speaker 1:14:03 Right? Yeah. And you were wrong about it? Unknown Speaker 1:14:05 I was Yeah, I was wrong that I couldn't hear him. I was right about the fact that it's gonna be twice as annoying to walk. Really? Unknown Speaker 1:14:12 Yes. Yes, but there are going to be things about this house you are just going to fall so hard for I mean, I already like it. The weight room fitting in? Well, looking at wind I mean that Windows amazing. Look, there's another one. But that one in particular. I really Unknown Speaker 1:14:32 like that because you're sitting in a closet and you don't have any Unknown Speaker 1:14:36 I know but I do have Windows out. Unknown Speaker 1:14:39 We have to send Amanda window. That will be her thank you gift. We'll send her a window. Unknown Speaker 1:14:44 But please send me send me that one. That one. All right. I'll find a box. Thanks. Unknown Speaker 1:14:50 This is great audio material guys for the podcast. Unknown Speaker 1:14:53 Isn't that? Unknown Speaker 1:14:57 Well, I think that that I think that's a good place to start wrapping it up. Amanda Where? Where can the listeners out there connect with you? Unknown Speaker 1:15:08 Well, I have a website. It's Amanda Stern, calm. It hasn't been updated in a little while. But it's still there. I hope morning. Okay, good. And you can contact me there. And it seems like it'll go to some like anonymous place it does not it goes right to my email. And they can buy my book, little panic somewhere, anywhere, preferably an independent bookstore. And I think, oh, and I have a podcast called bookable that can go listen to that, but it's not really about anxiety. It's about books. But, you know, people need to read Unknown Speaker 1:15:51 books help my anxiety. That's like the thing I do when I'm feeling super anxious. Unknown Speaker 1:15:56 Yeah, I go read me to actually usually just go read, like, how to get over anxiety books. Oh, no, when I have anxiety? No, it's helpful. For me. It's super helpful. It's like that and parenting books are really, really calmed me down, which is so strange Unknown Speaker 1:16:14 feet and those might be super anxious because they just made me feel like I'm not doing enough. So I'm like, let's go have another Tea Party. Unknown Speaker 1:16:22 Yeah, kids don't need much. Just tea parties. Well, Unknown Speaker 1:16:26 awesome. Amanda, thank you for being a part of it's okay to feel. Unknown Speaker 1:16:30 Well, thank you so much for asking me. I'm very excited to be on this episode. And to meet you Jennifer and to see you know. Unknown Speaker 1:16:39 Thank you so much for listening. If you love the episode, we would love for you to subscribe and leave us a review. For more information or just to say hello, head over to Instagram at Nami underscore OC and ami underscore OC or say hi to known at you me empathy, or me, Jennifer, Jennifer Lynn Jamie and I PHGRLYN fakes Have a beautiful day. Transcribed by https://otter.ai