Unknown Speaker 0:07 Hello, welcome to it's okay to feel with Jennifer and known a nominee OC podcast where we explore mental health topics that help you feel your feelings and feel a little less alone. We're so happy you're here. Now, on to the show. Unknown Speaker 0:24 All right, welcome to it's okay to feel because it's okay to feel. I like to feel feel feel feel all day long. feely, feely, feely vvvv feels. Hello, Jennifer. Unknown Speaker 0:40 Hi. Unknown Speaker 0:41 My name is known and today's episode is all about feelings and why it's okay to feel. The name of this podcast is called it's okay to feel. And today we're talking about why it's okay to feel and our interview today is with Denise SALKIN, who's a therapist and a friend and just so good at talking about feelings, really loved that conversation. But before we get to that, we're going to talk about what feelings mean to us. Unknown Speaker 1:15 I am, what do your feelings mean to you? Unknown Speaker 1:20 Gosh, well, when I think about feelings I think about and I meant we talked about this a little bit in our conversation with the name but I think about a map. I think about like a journey, you know, like a road. And feelings are the guideposts on that road, right? We're, we're walking along or we're driving or we're on our little bicycle or whatever scooter. And we see a sign. And maybe that sign says something like I'm feeling anxious or whatever. And then maybe the next sign says, you know, maybe the next sign says like, you know, ask a question like, why are you feeling that way? You know, or is that true that you're feeling that way? And so the point being, when I think about feelings, I think about being mindful, I think about like being curious about what you're feeling, you know, in your body in your mind, in your noggin as I like to say, Unknown Speaker 2:22 I like your noggin, no, Unknown Speaker 2:23 I did too. Unknown Speaker 2:26 But it's it's about being in touch with ourselves. and not being afraid to be in touch with ourselves. feelings, I think, especially like, in our culture, get a get a rap for like being I don't know, we'll see or something, you know, like, Unknown Speaker 2:48 are too sensitive or like, oh, that weak? Unknown Speaker 2:52 Yeah, weak. Yeah. And the The truth is the opposite. Feeling your feelings is, is a superpower. It's its strength, its resilience. So that's what I think about. How about you? What do you think about when you think about feelings? feeling your feelings? Unknown Speaker 3:11 Let's see, what Unknown Speaker 3:13 do I think about feelings? Um, I feel like when people allow themselves to feel their feelings that's like, feelings are what make you like alive. Like, they don't always feel good. And you don't always want to think about them. But because you're able to feel like that's what makes you like a human you're able to feel and then figure out how to go up or down or sideways from them. And in theory, they're kind of a blessing even though they're also kind of crappy sometimes. But without the negative feelings. You can't feel the positive feelings and sometimes the negative feelings make you even more grateful for the positive feeling. So Unknown Speaker 3:54 yeah, yeah, I Unknown Speaker 3:56 like I like the way you describe it. I it is it is. It's integral to being human. Right. Because like without them or squirrels, we're squirrels. Or we're not here any mailing no without Unknown Speaker 4:11 them. We're squirrels. thicker. Unknown Speaker 4:15 That should be our news thicker. Oh my gosh. That's amazing. But also squirrels are adorable. And maybe people would think we were like denigrating squirrels. Oh, no, that's not the right word. Unknown Speaker 4:27 I don't know. You have like a much bigger vocabulary. Unknown Speaker 4:31 Missing squirrels. But yeah, I love that. And then, you know, I I do think it's important also, like you mentioned negative feelings. I think when I when I think about feelings I think about I don't think about it in the context of positive or negative I think about just, they're all here to tell me something. Right. And and we can't figure out if they're going to tell me something or not. If I need to ignore it or not, if I'm not paying attention, Unknown Speaker 5:05 right, and changing the topic just a little bit, do you think you're an optimist or a pessimist? Or somewhere in between? Maybe it's called an activist. I don't really know. Unknown Speaker 5:17 That's interesting. I don't really think about that. Um, I think I'm, I think I would say I'm, I am a somewhat of a realist, but I also have a lot of like utopian sort of leanings as well. You know, meaning like I I'm a think wishful thinker, you know, I let my imagination kind of run amok a bit, you know, Unknown Speaker 5:44 how about you? Unknown Speaker 5:45 I call myself an optimistic pessimist. Hmm, because technically, my, I am a pessimist. Like, I always think of like, worst case scenario I I kind of panicky, I'm, I'm fearful of like, they're not being birds in my new house like, or maybe not. Enough lizards like Unknown Speaker 6:07 notice Gary to Unknown Speaker 6:10 make you feel the look you're giving me or the feeling of not enough loser. Unknown Speaker 6:15 The lizard list world how does that make you feel? Unknown Speaker 6:17 I lived in New York for a long time, and I never realized how much I missed salamanders and like nukes. until I moved. me like I'm crazy. I love land creatures. Okay, Unknown Speaker 6:30 no, I I'm with you. Unknown Speaker 6:32 I love walking through like the backyard and there's like lizards and snails and, and birds and squirrels and bunnies. That makes me happy. It's. But I didn't realize how much I miss them until I didn't live here. Like I love walking down the sidewalk. And they all scurry everywhere. Okay, we're getting off topic. Unknown Speaker 6:53 Are you a person who feels a lot of feelings when you're met with change? Unknown Speaker 7:03 Oh, yeah. Like, hardcore. Like, I know we, I mean, we kind of just talked about that now. But I am. I look on the negative, like I thought, okay, here's a great example. We bought a couch in New York, and we had a tiny apartment even tinier than those tiny house. And my husband said, I think we should move the couch, like, a different direction, like so we're looking at instead of looking at the window, we can look at the TV. Oh. And I'm like, I don't know. And I had like, a small anxiety attack. And I was like, I don't know if we should do this. And my husband's like, okay, let's just move the couch. And if you hate it, we can move the couch back. And I love the couch there. Like it was great to look at the TV for the couch. But like even those kinds of changes like boggle me, like I know it's not like a healthy boggling but like I'm, I'm feet like when I was pregnant instead of being excited being pregnant, which kind of, I look back on that. And that makes me really sad. Like, I was not excited to have Oliver and I love him now. But I was so fearful of the changes that will happen our lives which is inevitable, like, you have to know what do you have a baby like everything in your life will change? some good, some bad? Mostly exhausting. But I was so fearful of him walking, what's gonna happen when he walks? Or how am I going to homeschool him when he's seven? Or what if he is this personality trait? How will I handle that? Like, how will I handle him doing math this weird way? And my friends like, dude, you're pregnant? Like, why don't you worry about like birthing him first, like walking, he's not gonna come for like, a really long time. And then I have that habit of like being fearful of that next step. And instead of being in the present step, which you mentioned as like a great managing anxiety technique, like, I probably need to check myself before I wreck myself more often. Unknown Speaker 9:00 Well, yeah, I mean, I feelings get it can get away from us, right? And feelings can take us to that, you know, anxiety place and thinking ahead and stuff like that. And I think, you know, when we're talking, whether we're talking about anxiety, or really any sort of, like, stressful situation. Yeah, mindfulness can be like a great tool to bring us back to center. Because really, when we're talking about change, and things like that, in the future, you know, these things are really out of our control. And I think, for me, you know, what has helped me in my mental health is reminding myself of that, you know, reminding myself of not saying like, you have no control known but also saying that like there, there are a few things that you can control and let's, let's, let's focus on those things and not try to Like control the things that are really out of my control because that that just leads to anxiety that leads to stress that leads to heart ache, all of that stuff. Unknown Speaker 10:10 So, to me, when I hear the word mindfulness, I kind of feel like it's like a buzzy word right now. So do you want to encase a listener? And we don't know exactly what that means? Can you kind of describe it? Unknown Speaker 10:23 I think it's probably different for everyone. But for me, it's specifically about you know, sort of engaging my mind and body to be in the moment and to be present, whether that's through like deep breathing techniques, or, you know, just just kind of self talk and saying, like, I'm here now, and really paying attention to the here and now, as opposed to like, what's gonna happen tomorrow, like, so for, for the folks listening, like, maybe you're in college or high school or something, and you're thinking about, you're worried about what's going to happen tomorrow on the test, or what's going to happen at school, I get that I've been there. But, you know, no amount of anxiety is going to make tomorrow. Better, or, you know, you don't know what's going to happen tomorrow. So what you can control is what you have now. And so really, like I you know, it's it's interesting, because I came from a world, like I was raised in a, like a Judeo Christian home, like, very strict at times, but also, like, super wild at times, you know, like, my parents not being there a lot and me being gone all the time. And my mom buying me beer in high school and stuff like that, like, you know, so like, very, like confusing in that way. But I bring that up, because I there was a lot of it that was that felt like very repressed and structured, right. And, and I felt a lot of anxiety about, like, what I can and can't control because there's a lot of like doom and gloom in, you know, some of that experience. And so now, being someone who's I think, more connected to nature and more connected to like myself, and knowing myself, like I can be okay with allowing myself to let go of that. And a lot of it is letting go. Like, I would say to the listeners to you, Jennifer, when it comes to our mental health practices, like letting go is an important rule across the board, letting go of the stress, letting go of the anxious anxieties about tomorrow, letting go of that kind of control, you know, letting go is is is crucial, you know, it is how it has certainly helped my, my relationship with my feelings and my mental health. How about you? Unknown Speaker 13:03 Um, how about me? Like, how do I Unknown Speaker 13:10 can pull that back anymore. Unknown Speaker 13:14 Um, so, I feel like I'm going to talk about food and like, every part of everything, I only have to, I have like a technique that maybe isn't, it's about eating. So it might not be the healthiest technique. But there's, for some reason, one of the one not the only, but one of the only ways I can like re calibrate my brain is like, I get away from what I'm doing. And I make myself a cup of tea, and I have like a treat. And I like, fully enjoy whatever I'm eating. Like, it's something just for me, it's a moment like, I'll turn the TV on for Oliver like, and I'll just enjoy this thing. And then I'm able to kind of like, move forward. It's, it's been that way for like five years like communities to make fun of me because in New York City, like most people eat as they're walking and I refuse to eat while walking because I this is a treat, like I want to enjoy this crappy $1 slice of pizza, this red bean can from Chinatown, this, whatever. Like, I want to sit down and I want to have a cup of tea with it. And that's like my moment. Like, and that I, I love these moments. Like they. I mean, they happen every day. And sometimes they love them five times a day. But that's like, for whatever reason, in that moment, I could focus maybe because it feels like a present. Like even if it's just like a I don't know, whatever. No cheese cracker or a cookie. Or maybe you know some marmalade Yeah, I guess if you can get these mistakes and over episodes, give me a shout. But that one is like that's my thing. Unknown Speaker 14:59 I love that. It's Like a little ritual, that you feel safe, and it is a self honoring self care sort of thing. Yeah, I like that a lot. I relate to that, especially when it comes to like food, like I don't, I don't want to eat on the run, you know, like, I want to, like, take my time and really enjoy the thing and make it special. Yeah, I'm with you on that. Do you, you know, when it comes to like, what is your sense of? Because we're talking about feelings? What is your sense of like? How feelings sort of crosses over and interacts with, you know, the gender spectrum, you know, because, you know, I, I identify as male as a man and I'm, I am a male person, human being, and, you know, feelings like for me, you know, maybe a little different, like, what do you think about that? Unknown Speaker 15:59 That's a great question. And I can't wait to hear your answer to that. Um, I feel like in my upbringing, okay. And I am like completely basing this on my upbringing on society in like the 90s. And the 80s. Like, Unknown Speaker 16:17 when Vanilla Ice was prominent, Unknown Speaker 16:19 and he had that I don't even know he had that, that elbow tattoo back then. But like Unknown Speaker 16:23 I said, go Ninja, go Ninja go. Unknown Speaker 16:27 Exactly was that actually, in the episode before it was I just something that we talked about? I don't Unknown Speaker 16:31 know. But no one's gonna understand what we're talking about. Unknown Speaker 16:35 Unless they listen to all the episodes, and there's like, so much crossover. We're like a really good novel. That's, like an author that has like little tidbits of every book. Um, but I feel like generally, it's okay for, like, girls, women, whatever, to have feelings more than it is for guys. I can't imagine being the person I am. And being a male. I mean, I might not be exactly the same, but I might still have the same like structure and brainwaves. And whenever I can't imagine how difficult that is. But in my house, specifically, it was frowned upon. Like, it meant weakness. It meant I couldn't get over stuff. I was like, sensitive, like, you're so sensitive to the point where like, I was 23. And my mom, I think I was 23. And my mom didn't tell me she had cancer, because she didn't think I could handle it. What ended up happening is that my best friend lived where I lived, and we drove, she happened to be going down to where we lived. And I drove down with her to surprise my parents. And my mom was recovering from surgery. And she was very drugged. And she kept thanking me for loving her so much that it came down after her surgery. But they didn't tell me she was sick. So because I can't handle it, so like, I dread whenever my mom says there's something I have to talk to you about what happens all the time about a variety of things. I don't know if I said that the right way, or if that's the right word, but because in my brain, my like, the way I was raised is like, you can't handle that you're weak, you're sensitive, like you're, you know, um, so it's kind of crippling, but, um, I don't I don't know, I haven't asked my brother, but I'm not incredibly close with him. But maybe I should ask him. Did he feel that way too? Like, because he's boy and I am girl. Unknown Speaker 18:29 You are tars at? Unknown Speaker 18:32 Jennifer. Yeah. Unknown Speaker 18:34 So what about, you Unknown Speaker 18:35 know, I wanted to reflect on what you said real quick. And because it's interesting, I do think there are, you know, gender constructs that say we have to be a certain way, but obviously, like, you know, there is this universal thing sometimes for however you identify, you know, sometimes people can impress upon you that feelings are, yeah, like, you're too much right? And you can't handle it and, and I think that's doing a disservice to like, just the human spirit, you know, because these feelings are meant to be felt, as Denise said, right in our interview, like they're meant to be felt their, their, their information, and the more we have it, the better and so it always hurts me. When I hear someone like yourself, say that, that was taken away from me in some way, you know? Unknown Speaker 19:36 And that's why I feel like especially raising a boy. Like why I feel it is so imperative that I raised him at all, if he wants to be maybe he won't be I feel like he's got to be sensitive, but to allow him to feel whatever he's feeling and to try and put a name into it because I don't I had a great little thing about that because I never say like, what are you feeling in your body? Like what emotion is that but maybe I should To allow him to express himself, like he is a toddler, he was feeling a lot of feelings like, and let's talk through it and you can come to me and you can get a hug, like hugs are good, like. So hopefully he carried that out throughout his life. Like if he is, you know, anyway, he is like, even those people who don't consider themselves incredibly sensitive, maybe they would if they were treated a different way when they were younger. Unknown Speaker 20:24 Yeah, yeah, no, I he's gonna be as sensitive and feely as as she needs to be as he wants to be. Because you guys have that safe, you know, environment, you know, fostering that? Yeah, for me, you know, it's interesting, because I do think, like, I do get the question a lot about, like, Oh, what is it? What does it mean to you to be a man and to, like, be so feely and talk about your feelings and stuff, and, you know, I get that it's coming from this place of stigma around like men, and how men have to be beacons of strength, and we have to, like, be strong, and all that stuff. And the reality is, all that stuff is bull honkey. You know, like, we, we need to be what we need to be, you know, and for me, I was always very sensitive and feely and, you know, growing up in an environment that felt very, you know, that felt very dangerous to do, like, I had to hide myself. So I didn't really learn to tap into that until, until really my late 20s, honestly, and I feel sad about that, I feel like grief around that and loss. But, again, all I have is now and what I can do with it now, and it feels great to feel I love the feel, it's, it's, it's a wonderland, you know, I love it. And, you know, for anyone listening, whether you identify as a man or you know, in, you know, non binary or, you know, queer or any sort of groups that feel like you have to be a certain way or you're not accepted or something like you are a beautiful feely human that has this wonderful tapestry of and superpower of feelings and feelings are important, you know, so use them, you know, be curious about them, because it's only gonna allow you to grow and really tap into who you are and enrich your connections with other people. You know, and that's, Unknown Speaker 22:45 that's what this is all about. Unknown Speaker 22:45 And that's what makes us not squirrels. Unknown Speaker 22:49 That's what makes us not squirrels. Yeah. And we have the opposable thumbs to put marmalade on crackers. Yeah, Unknown Speaker 22:59 my cat actually does a good job of doing that. I shouldn't have those. Unknown Speaker 23:02 Oh, well, that's impressive. All right. Well, I think that that's a good place to cut it. Listeners Thank you for listening to it's okay to feel. I hope you enjoy the episode. Episode of keep coming episode. Sorry, the interview. Unknown Speaker 23:25 Oh, interview. Yes, we Unknown Speaker 23:27 do hope you enjoy the interview and the whole episode, Unknown Speaker 23:30 the whole episode and the interview with Denise SALKIN coming up. I wanted to say that it's okay to feel as for informational, educational and or an entertainment purposes only. It is not a substitute for medical or psychiatric advice, diagnosis or treatment. We are silly. feely non therapists people who like crackers and who are not squirrels but maybe scrolls. So that's what their life they have their life. Unknown Speaker 24:04 And I wanted to mention that we it's okay to feel is funded by the orange county health care agency OSI HCA behavioral health services Coronavirus, aid and relief and economic security cares act which basically means that we were gifted these funds to start these podcasts, these podcasts this podcast and we are grateful. Unknown Speaker 24:31 We are indeed. And I'm gonna say this Unknown Speaker 24:42 for your Hey, Unknown Speaker 24:44 oh, I get this. Hey, remember that your feelings are valid. Your feelings are guideposts on your journey and it's always okay to feel Unknown Speaker 25:08 Welcome to it's okay to feel a podcast have by Naomi OC and hosted by me known wells and my co host, Jennifer Lynn. Hello, Jennifer. Unknown Speaker 25:19 That's me. Hello. Hello. Unknown Speaker 25:22 And today, in today's episode, we're talking about why it's okay to feel and we have a special guest who is a therapist. She is a friend. She's been a guest on my podcast you me empathy. And she she's a feeler herself today socan Hello, Denae. Unknown Speaker 25:43 Hello, and thanks so much for having me guys. So excited to be here with you. Yeah. Unknown Speaker 25:51 Yeah. Unknown Speaker 25:52 Well, we're very excited to be here with DNA talking about why it's okay to feel because feelings are the best feelings are my jam their damn their DNA is jam. Their marmalade jam. Unknown Speaker 26:05 Jam today a little sweet, a little sour. There Unknown Speaker 26:07 you go. Love a cherry jam. Unknown Speaker 26:09 cracker? Sorry. Unknown Speaker 26:13 I love to eat Unknown Speaker 26:15 DNA. For the listeners? Would you do us a favor and just introduce yourself and tell the listeners a little bit about the work you do? Unknown Speaker 26:24 Sure. So I'm today and I am a therapist in Los Angeles. And I work in a private practice with a group of therapists where we do really holistic psychotherapy, just sort of looking at the whole human. And you know, what that includes is certainly talk therapy, I come from a more depth psychological perspective. But we also at flow house, do like some acupuncture and somatic work and EMDR and, you know, like just different modalities to really address like whatever's coming up, whether that's trauma work, or sort of re parenting and all of the things that we do in therapy, and it's great, you know, I, I love working with clients, it's been certainly an evolution this year, I've been working virtually for the first time since March has so many therapists have. But you know, it's been really incredible to feel like this is something that I can continue to do to be of service at a time when so many of us are just feeling just so you know, helpless with the state of the world, and how challenging so many things are right now. But yeah, that's a little bit of what I do. I'm also a yoga teacher have done that for like 10 years here in LA and mindfulness coach and, you know, I teach them online, or facilitate, I guess I should say, some online therapy groups, and just a little bit of everything. Unknown Speaker 27:59 Lovely. And you, you're a podcast host. Unknown Speaker 28:02 And you think you know, and that's right. And I have a podcast as well called cheaper than therapy with a good girlfriend of mine, Vanessa Bennett, where we do a lot of, you know, just having conversations that hopefully, D stigmatize and desensitize the conversations that we have in the therapy room. So we sort of the goal is to sort of like peek behind the door, we have people come on for live coaching, therapy type sessions, it's technically not therapy, because you know, it's all anonymous. But, um, but yeah, so you can sort of get the feel in these sessions of like, what it would be like if you were to step in the therapy room and maybe hear something someone struggling with, that you might resonate with in your own life. And then we also bring on guests and known you've been on our podcast and and we sort of, you know, just bring on people that we really love and respect in the mental health field as well. Unknown Speaker 28:57 Amazing. Unknown Speaker 29:00 So, the first question I have is, why is it okay to feel Unknown Speaker 29:08 love that? Well, you know, I like to say often that you know, what happens when we don't, I think is the better question, right? These feelings are going to be there in our body anyway, I think a lot of what we are conditioned to do from a very young age is pushed down the feelings that either society or our caregivers or our peer groups have taught us are the unacceptable feelings, right? Like it is okay to be happy sadness, not so much right? Like it is okay to be excited, nervous and shut that down right. So, some feelings we sort of collectively accept as being the feelings we want to feel in some feelings, we sort of make the unacceptable feelings but all the feelings are present within us and I you know, I love to use the analogy of like a beach ball. So if you put Push down the feelings that we decide aren't the acceptable feelings to feel, it's sort of like if you've ever had like one of those really big beach balls in a pool, I like to talk to clients about like, you can push that beach ball down underwater, and it's gonna be a lot of effort, it's gonna be really difficult. And you can do it for a while, you know, you can use your whole body to hold it down, it's going to be slippery, but you can maneuver it, you can make it happen. But eventually, that ball is going to come to the surface. And when it does, it's going to be huge, it's going to be like an explosion. Whereas if we just sort of allowed ourselves to be in relationship to the ball, if we just sort of allowed ourselves to play with the ball, maybe see what what it's all about, it would be a very different experience. And I think that's a lot like our feelings, right? Those feelings are present in our body, whether we give them space to be felt, to be explored to be named or not. But I think when we suppress our feelings, they come up, they manifest in other ways, you know, I think so often, our anxieties are, you know, our deepest forms of depression, those are about the things that we are not giving ourselves the space to really explore and allow ourselves to feel a lot of times, Unknown Speaker 31:13 why do you feel like it's difficult to feel our feelings? or Why do you? I feel like this is like the 100. What's the quote, Blitz? The phrase, like the 100% question, or I can't think of the phrase, but why do you feel like society? And why is it okay to feel in general? Well, I Unknown Speaker 31:31 think, you know, it's just, Unknown Speaker 31:32 it's a lot of conditioning. I think that, you know, our parents feel like certain feelings are the unacceptable feelings, because they were conditioned to believe by their parents that those were unacceptable feelings and their parents, right. And it becomes sort of the cycle until someone sort of breaks the cycle and says, Why, why though, is it not okay to feel these? You know, and I think it's, it's so interesting, Jennifer, I know you and I were talking before we started, that we both have little boys. And I think when you have children, it's sort of fascinating to watch. Children are like, they're in their feelings. Like I say, they're like the the Guru's of dealing feelings, because they're like, in them, and they're big, and they're like, expressing them. And, you know, I think our work as parents is to really not shut that down, right? Like, we are tempted, certainly, because someone taught us like, who like if you're in a store, like you can't be acted out, you can't have big feelings, like you need to keep that suppressed. But, but who says right? Like, if I'm frustrated, like, Can I name the feeling? Can I allow space for it, and I find so often, you know, as parents, what we're sort of witnessing in our children, that is so difficult to tolerate, when they have big feelings is the extent to which we've conditioned ourselves to suppress our own big feelings, right? So bearing witness to what we have sort of had to shut down or shame ourselves for make ourselves wrong, for being in the space of it can be really tough to sort of allow them to have that space. So I often will say to parents, you know, our work is actually to attend to ourselves to really like, notice what's coming up for me when my kiddo has a vague feeling versus like making their feelings wrong. Because I think all feelings are meant to be felt, I think all feelings should be welcome. I think all feelings should be explored and named and processed. And I think what really sort of ends up causing us to have all of these deep mental health struggles a lot of times is the fact that we're just not allowing ourselves to feel everything that we need to feel. Unknown Speaker 33:36 Yeah, yeah. So true. I wonder like you mentioned conditioning. What are some of those tools of conditioning that that maybe listeners could keep an eye out for? Right, because, like, a lot of them, as you know, are things we're not even aware of things that are kind of, you know, insidiously sort of hiding behind things and sort of part of things that were just they just kind of sneak up on us, you know? Unknown Speaker 34:05 Yeah, that's a that's a really interesting way to think about it. You know, I really love Byron Katie's work. I think she is one of the first people yeah, that sort of like introduced me to this idea of like, how we workshop the thoughts that come up, you know, because we will so often just sort of accept things that you know, the thought is like a fact right. And and I think not only are thoughts, not facts, but feelings are not facts in that feelings will come they will move through us and they will move on, right. But sometimes, like when we're in the space of anxiety, I think what is difficult about anxiety, for instance, is that we imagine this feeling of anxiety that I have is going to last forever, but that's actually not the case, right? Like I like to say it's like coffee, if you drink a bunch of coffee, you would probably be a little like wired you would be maybe a little agitated. He would feel like hype on coffee. But you wouldn't say like I am coffee, you would say there's coffee in me, right? And I sort of like to, you know, experience whatever feeling I'm having in the same way, right? Like, there's anxiety in me right now, like, I am in the experience of anxiety, but I am not anxiety that is not who I am. That is a feeling I'm experiencing, but it's not the fact of who I am. So circling back to your question, I think, you know, the, the feelings that, you know, there are some feelings that are a little bit more uncomfortable to feel anxiety is going to be one of those feelings, right. And so, I think a lot of times our parents, in their inability to sit in the discomfort of some of the challenging feelings have for themselves, and certainly conditioned us to shut those things down, right, either to distract or to, you know, make them wrong, or push them down, explain them away. However, we've done that, but can I stay in the Curiosity with the thought that's coming up around the anxiety? Can I stay in curiosity around the sensations in my body that come up? I think that is the work that it becomes really helpful for us to do. Unknown Speaker 36:17 I know it's on the list and has determined just a tiny bit. But I'm especially raising a kid Oh, but what what do you like? How would you help people, not only their children, but help other people allow people to feel their feelings? Like as they're phrases, you can say? Like, is there a certain way we should comfort people? Or give them space when they are feeling feelings? Yeah. Unknown Speaker 36:41 I mean, I, you know, I love that you asked about kiddos, because I feel like for me, so much of the work of parenting for me right now has been like, how do I experience my child as a human being. And I know that sounds like ridiculous when you say it on face value, but but like, they are just little humans, maybe they are a little bit more in touch with the things that we're trying to remember how to get back in touch with. But ultimately, I think there's so much about like, respecting their space, and what they are working through. That is the same as other adults, right? So I think so often, it's about naming the feeling, I think bearing witness is so much of what ends up being really powerful about therapy and, you know, gives us the space to process whatever we're going through, because our work is not really so much to fix any experience of feelings that anyone else is having. But just to sort of give them the space to feel it. Right. So if my little boy is like, really frustrated, and you know, like, his feelings are big, and he like wants to hit Like, I will sort of like drop into myself first. Like, I'm always, you know, whatever the feeling is, I sort of tend to myself first and notice what's coming up for me. I want to like shut down his experience of, you know, rage or anger or whatever he's feeling. So can I take take a deep breath and just like notice that experience? And then sort of name it right, like, oh, buddy, you're you're having some really big feelings right now. Right? Like, it's, it's really frustrating. Yeah, you know, I understand I wish sometimes that I, I would get to keep playing whatever, with whatever toy I was playing with. And it's really frustrating when sometimes you want to keep playing and you have to share, I get that right, like, so sometimes just naming the experience as you're bearing witness to it, which is very similar to what I might do in the therapy room, right. Like I might say, it sounds like this is what this feels like for you. Right? And even being witnessed in that way. I feel like can somehow alchemically soften the space of resistance that we have a lot of times to the difficult feeling, if that makes sense. Unknown Speaker 38:57 I love that. So next time no one is crying over all his potato chips falling on the ground like, Hey, dude, I know what you're feeling is pride, frustration, maybe a little sadness. But next time you're at Trader Joe's, you could buy another back. Unknown Speaker 39:11 I too have felt frustration over potato chips. Yeah. Unknown Speaker 39:17 One loves to talk about. Unknown Speaker 39:19 I do think it's fair to say that one would approach I don't know a six year old boy and then me perhaps differently, but I do think what you're saying is very profound and needed. the naming of things is essential. But I I wonder like for the folks listening who like are coming into their own selves, their you know, late teens, early 20s. You know, I know. You know, when I was at age, I was a screw up and I'm not saying the listeners are scrubs, but like, I was I didn't know what I didn't know what was going on in the math. Yeah, and I you know, just the you know, he Hearing you say, and I, you know, coming out of that I'm 39 now, so I, I've developed some practice to do that work to figure out like, Hey, what is this? You know, but sometimes it's hard to even figure out like, what is, what is this feeling even right? What is this? Like? How can I even name it when I don't even? It's so unfamiliar? 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